# Everybody's talkin' about... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 2, 2007, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553 "2007-12-02T14:29:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/41 "2007-12-02T19:33:36Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Ya know, Johny ol’ bean, perhaps you could link us to an example of what you are concerned about before we get to far into this debate. Or is your concern just a general feeling of anxiety that you wanted to express? [/QUOTE] no need to be condescending. just do a google search on “atheist, holiday tree” for an example. you can start there… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/42 "2007-12-02T19:35:16Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] no need to be condescending. just do a google search on “atheist, holiday tree” for an example. you can start there… [/QUOTE] It’s usually considered appropriate for the person who starts the thread to do that sort of work. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/43 "2007-12-02T19:44:37Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] what I want to say, is anyone who is intolerant of the religious or objects to religious practices held public because it “offends them” is intolerant. [/QUOTE] Way to chase your own tail there, Rover. I think you’ve defined yourself right out of an argument. Next up: do true Scotsmen purt sugar on their porridge? Stranger ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/44 "2007-12-02T19:54:05Z")
What QTM said. Also, I think this debate could be more effective if you would go on record here and now, and state whether you are an atheist or not. It does not matter what your answer is, but I get the feeling you are not, and are just using it as a rhetorical device. FTR I am an atheist and think that any atheist who wants to make a big deal about a holiday tree is goofy. Icons of dogma have no place in our public spaces. I am fine with a Christmas tree because lets face it Christmas has little if anything to do with Christianity. Like I said both my wife and I are atheists yet we have an annual Christmas party decorate the house with all kinds of standard Christmas crap, have a big tree with a star on top. We get teary and enjoy our own feeling of wishing good cheer to all of humanity. I would have no objection to typical christmas displays Santas Trees reindeer elves and such in my community, but the minute they try to put up a manger or nativity scene or menorah or “Atheist Holiday Tree” I will break out my protest sneakers and do my best to get rid of it. ---
**Author:** ![DianaG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ab992/32.png) [@DianaG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DianaG)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/45 "2007-12-02T20:42:52Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] Yes, it’s a widespread problem because too many people object over trivial irrelevant things that fall under the guise of “intolerance”. As they happen, I’ll point them out. But just this morning on the cable talk shows, the atheist holiday tree was discussed. And although I completely support it, some people did not. Why? Why not let them have a holiday tree? It’s pure intolerance not to… Are people threatened by beliefs that do not match their own? I think so… [/QUOTE] I think we should all take a moment to contemplate that perhaps it’s not so much a “widespread problem” involving “too many people”, as that “morning cable talk shows” have to fill those three hours with _something_. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/46 "2007-12-02T20:44:00Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] .. the minute they try to put up a[n] … **“Atheist Holiday Tree”** I will break out my protest sneakers and do my best to get rid of it. [/QUOTE] Um, on what grounds? Most would oppose the menorah and creche _by the municipality on public property_ on the grounds that it is effectively a state sponsorship of a specific religion. Atheism isn’t a religion. I’m not sure what argument one could use in court. [I found this reference](http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/29/atheists-win-right-to-display-their-own-holiday-tree/) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/47 "2007-12-02T20:44:13Z")
I’m curious as to what holiday the atheist would be celebrating with their tree? Festivus? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/48 "2007-12-02T20:47:50Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] like I said earlier regarding the “church and state” issue, point taken. Although I don’t completely agree with the concept of “separation of church and state”. I think it’s beyond anal. But that’s another debate… yeah. [/QUOTE] Yeah, what an anal bigot that [Jefferson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state) guy was. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/49 "2007-12-02T20:52:13Z")
[QUOTE=j666] Um, on what grounds? Most would oppose the menorah and creche _by the municipality on public property_ on the grounds that it is effectively a state sponsorship of a specific religion. Atheism isn’t a religion. I’m not sure what argument one could use in court. [I found this reference](http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/29/atheists-win-right-to-display-their-own-holiday-tree/) [/QUOTE] The government isn’t supposed to favor any one religion or favor religion (in general) over non-religion (atheism, if you will). Presumably the opposite is equally valid-- it can’t favor non-religion over religion. BTW, we did the whole “War on Christmas” thing awhile back. Anyone interested in digging through that trainwreck (IMO) of a thread just needs to do a little search for threads with “Christmas” in the title. I think even the OP finally agreed that there is not a “war on Christmas”. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/50 "2007-12-02T21:04:19Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Yeah, what an anal bigot that [Jefferson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state) guy was. [/QUOTE] Oh, and I’m aware that the Big J was slave owner. I’m talking about in context of religious beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/51 "2007-12-02T21:13:56Z")
[QUOTE=twickster] In public, not a problem – supported by govt. money, it’s against the First Amendment, and, yeah, I have a problem with it. [/QUOTE] Actually, it’s not. The SCOTUS has ruled that mixed dispalys are OK as long they stick to “secularized” symbols and don’t push one religion over others. What gets to be called a “secularized” symbol and what doesn’t is one of those angel dancing on the head of ping things. Presumably, any message on the display like “Christ is Lord” would make it lose secular status. [Lynch v. Donnelly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_v._Donnelly) [County of Allegheny v. ACLU](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegheny_County_v._Greater_Pittsburgh_ACLU) Frankly, I find the logic to be rather twisted, but that’s the way it is. Symbols aren’t bad, in and of themselves, but you need to consider the motivation for using them. If you’re trying to push religion, then that’s bad. If you just want to recognize the holiday, that’s OK. The key method the Court has used to determine whether an action violates the establishment clause was outlined in _Lemon vs Kurztman_. The Lemon Test (don’t laugh) is: 1. The government’s action must have a legitimate secular purpose; 2. The government’s action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; 3. The government’s action must not result in an “excessive government entanglement” with religion. And of course, we can all easily agree what is excessive and what isn’t, right? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/52 "2007-12-02T21:22:26Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] Yeah, what an anal bigot that [Jefferson](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state) guy was. [/QUOTE] I think that jefferson guy was trying to avoid another Church of England scenario. i don’t think that jefferson guy would object if people prayed at graduations or football games, or wherever… etc… ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/53 "2007-12-02T21:23:48Z")
[QUOTE=j666] Um, on what grounds? Most would oppose the menorah and creche _by the municipality on public property_ on the grounds that it is effectively a state sponsorship of a specific religion. Atheism isn’t a religion. I’m not sure what argument one could use in court. [I found this reference](http://hotair.com/archives/2007/11/29/atheists-win-right-to-display-their-own-holiday-tree/) [/QUOTE] I don’t know whether it would go against the letter of the law or not, but it would seem to go against the spirit. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/54 "2007-12-02T21:24:27Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] I think that jefferson guy was trying to avoid another Church of England scenario. i don’t think that jefferson guy would object if people prayed at graduations or football games, or wherever… etc… [/QUOTE] Oh I think he would. My cite is the same as yours… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/55 "2007-12-02T21:25:12Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] I think that jefferson guy was trying to avoid another Church of England scenario. i don’t think that jefferson guy would object if people prayed at graduations or football games, or wherever… etc… [/QUOTE] Again, those are _private_ events. Not on public (government) property. It’s completely different from a tree on the courthouse lawn. ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/56 "2007-12-02T21:25:38Z")
[QUOTE=Love Rhombus] I’m curious as to what holiday the atheist would be celebrating with their tree? Festivus? [/QUOTE] knowledge. They celebrate knowledge. It would be a tree of knowledge… with thoughtful books decorated on it, etc… So it’s like atheists find comfort in their own intelligence and knowledge of the world… Judas was a scholar; but he had no wisdom. Just saying… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/57 "2007-12-02T21:26:43Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] knowledge. They celebrate knowledge. It would be a tree of knowledge… with thoughtful books decorated on it, etc… [/QUOTE] And you, personally, have seen these displays? ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/58 "2007-12-02T21:27:10Z")
[QUOTE=askeptic] Oh I think he would. My cite is the same as yours… [/QUOTE] than why was school prayer allowed for so long if Jefferson would have objected? What am I missing here? Wasn’t it Madeline O’hare who was deeply offended by school prayer and insisted that it be banned??? Not Jefferson… ---
**Author:** ![JohnnieEnigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dfb087/32.png) [@JohnnieEnigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnnieEnigma)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/59 "2007-12-02T21:28:35Z")
[QUOTE=Guinastasia] And you, personally, have seen these displays? [/QUOTE] uh, that’s irrelevant… the woman promoting this (an atheist) was discussing it this morning. Why would she lie about the theme of the tree? I don’t think she would deceive the viewers… she has no reason to. Am I not to believe her simply because I did not see her holiday tree? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553/60 "2007-12-02T21:30:27Z")
[QUOTE=JohnnyEnigma] uh, that’s irrelevant… the woman promoting this (an atheist) was discussing it this morning. Why would she lie about the theme of the tree? I don’t think she would deceive the viewers… she has no reason to. Am I not to believe her simply because I did not see her holiday tree? [/QUOTE] _sigh_ My point is, how _common_ are these sort of trees? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/everybodys-talkin-about/428553.md?page=4)