# evidence for god? some one said so. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896 "2013-01-21T08:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/21 "2013-01-21T19:19:36Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > And I believe that cats can fly, because I consider all furry creatures to be cats. What? That’s absurd. Everybody knows that cats are always girls and dogs are always boys. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/22 "2013-01-21T19:22:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What? That’s absurd. Everybody knows that cats are always girls and dogs are always boys. Thus also proving that girls can fly. This is what happens when you stick personal definitions into public conversations, folks. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/23 "2013-01-21T19:32:09Z")
I am an atheist, and I do not exactly disagree with the substance of the OP, but the overconfident way in which it presents such a weak argument for atheism is absurd. Any atheist who cannot give an account of how and why it was that for thousands of years virtually everybody, including many extremely smart, open minded, and intellectually curious people, firmly believed in a god or gods, and why many very smart and knowledgeable people still do, even today, really ought to desist from arrogant rantings until they have figured that out. You can be quite sure, **Critical1** , that there are, and, throughout history, have been, many, many people much smarter than you (or me) who were well aware of the argument that you make, and believed in God just the same. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/24 "2013-01-21T19:37:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Thus also proving that girls can fly. Yes, we’ve all seen _The Dark Crystal_. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/25 "2013-01-21T19:40:07Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > my writing style sucks, got it. does anyone have anything to actually add to the op or should we change this thread into a critique? (note I really wouldn’t mind) otherwise we are left with this > > sure, there could be, but without evidence of any kind it is a huge stretch. once again you are making an assumption based on what? I’m not asserting a fact. I’m hypothesizing (and having a chuckle). So, there is no assumption, only wit. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/26 "2013-01-21T19:45:06Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > the only evidence for gods existence is someone told you he does. OK, I don’t believe that’s the only reason people believe in God. Never mind if they’re right or wrong in their belief - your starting premise is false. Indoctrination sure is a big part of relgious belief, but it’s not the only way people arrive at belief. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/27 "2013-01-21T19:57:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > OK, I don’t believe that’s the only reason people believe in God. > > Never mind if they’re right or wrong in their belief - your starting premise is false. > > Indoctrination sure is a big part of relgious belief, but it’s not the only way people arrive at belief. Yes it is; there’s no objective reason whatsoever to believe in God. The entire idea is derived from a particular religious tradition, not even the human tendency towards religiosity; recreate human society from nothing on another planet, there’s no reason to assume that anyone there would ever come up with the idea of God, or if they did it would become popular. Despite Christian egotism, monotheism is not some natural and superior endpoint of human religious thought. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/28 "2013-01-21T20:03:27Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I’m not asserting a fact. I’m hypothesizing (and having a chuckle). So, there is no assumption, only wit. I kinda figured but wasn’t sure. > [@njtt](#): > > You can be quite sure, **Critical1** , that there are, and, throughout history, have been, many, many people much smarter than you (or me) who were well aware of the argument that you make, and believed in God just the same. how many of those people, given todays knowledge and understanding would hold the same views? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/29 "2013-01-21T20:09:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes it is; there’s no objective reason whatsoever to believe in God. Who said anything about objectivity? Not me. I’m not even claiming that people’s beliefs have any kind of basis in fact (and I said as much) - only that ‘someone told you’ is not the only way in which people arrive at belief. > [@](#): > > The entire idea is derived from a particular religious tradition, not even the human tendency towards religiosity; recreate human society from nothing on another planet, there’s no reason to assume that anyone there would ever come up with the idea of God, or if they did it would become popular. Despite Christian egotism, monotheism is not some natural and superior endpoint of human religious thought. If this was true, there would be no way for religion to have started in the first place, would there? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/30 "2013-01-21T20:22:22Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes it is; there’s no objective reason whatsoever to believe in God. People who have witnessed miracles would disagree. I was present at a minor miracle once. Back in the 80s when the first “Peacekeeper” 10-warhead ballistic missiles were deployed around Cheyenne, Wyoming there was an anti-nuke gathering in downtown Cheyenne. I’ve long forgotten his name, but a Reverend who headed up the SANE/somethingoruther(?) Coalition was one of the speakers. It was a rare windless day except at the _exact moment_ he was speaking of “the wind of change”, when a breeze came up hard enough to blow papers off of tables, and died after a few seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/31 "2013-01-21T20:25:16Z")
It’s significant that the only times **Critical1** has used capital letters are in his handle and the word “I”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/32 "2013-01-21T20:26:24Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > People who have witnessed miracles would disagree. Can you come up with one case where someone who wasn’t already familiar with Christianity, if not indocrinated, came to believe in God after witnessing a miracle? Why would they jump to the conclusion that God had anything to do with it? The indocrination comes first-any “miracles” support the conclusion, not establish it. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/33 "2013-01-21T20:30:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If this was true, there would be no way for religion to have started in the first place, would there? you mean other than the slow evolution of religion from early animalist and sun worshipers into multiple gods of this and that, to creation myths finally to monotheism? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/34 "2013-01-21T20:35:03Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > People who have witnessed miracles would disagree. No one has ever witnessed a miracle. And even if there were such things, what makes you think that someone who did witness it would attribute it to some being they had never heard of instead of their religious figures? That’s just Christian arrogance, the assumption that _their_ religion is obviously true and other religions obviously false, and that deep down everyone secretly agrees with them. > [@Mr.Duality](#): > > It was a rare windless day except at the _exact moment_ he was speaking of “the wind of change”, when a breeze came up hard enough to blow papers off of tables, and died after a few seconds. :rolleyes: A _minor coincidence_ is your idea of a “miracle”? That’s just pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/35 "2013-01-21T20:42:26Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > It’s significant that the only times **Critical1** has used capital letters are in his handle and the word “I”. you mean except for all the other capitols in the op as well right? I mean I get it, I rarely use caps, but my handle is not something I type and the word “I” is something ingrained in the way I type. the letter “I” is a two key word when all alone. but even a brief glance at the op shows several other caps. and a breeze blowing papers? seriously? 30+ replies and not a single argument from evidence, or without fallacy or bias. for that matter I haven’t even seen the attempt. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/36 "2013-01-21T20:54:42Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > you mean other than the slow evolution of religion from early animalist and sun worshipers into multiple gods of this and that, to creation myths finally to monotheism? I might have actually misunderstood your premise - please could you clarify? Are you asserting that people only become religious as a direct outcome of indoctrination (i.e. being on the receiving end of parental or cultural indoctrination/pressure, proselytisation, etc)? Or are you just asserting that when people become religious, they end up falling into one of the already-extant categories of belief? If the former, I believe you’re empirically wrong - people do start to believe in the supernatural for any number of reasons (doesn’t even matter if they’re valid - they’re just not all ‘someone told you’) If the latter, you’re probably right but for a handful of exceptions, but this seems a pretty banal truth. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/37 "2013-01-21T20:56:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Can you come up with one case where someone who wasn’t already familiar with Christianity, if not indocrinated, came to believe in God after witnessing a miracle? Why would they jump to the conclusion that God had anything to do with it? The indocrination comes first-any “miracles” support the conclusion, not establish it. No, and good point. Really, I spend almost no time worrying about it, one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/38 "2013-01-21T21:00:43Z")
Because of the incoherence of the OP, the only thing I can seem to come up with as the topic is: Does someone telling you ‘God exists’ constitute evidence for the existence of God? I would say ‘yes’, in the same way that personal testimony in a court is considered evidence for what the testimony says. And, just like the jury judges the credibility of the witness, the person hearing the story judges the credibility of the person making the claim. That said, I’ve never encountered someone claiming ‘God exists’ who was at all credible. They’ve only ever come up with either a) logically flawed arguments, or b) their own subjective experience, with no way of testing how real that subjective experience was, or whether or not it had anything to do with ‘God’. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/39 "2013-01-21T21:09:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > No one has ever witnessed a miracle. And even if there were such things, what makes you think that someone who did witness it would attribute it to some being they had never heard of instead of their religious figures? That’s just Christian arrogance, the assumption that _their_ religion is obviously true and other religions obviously false, and that deep down everyone secretly agrees with them. > > :rolleyes: A _minor coincidence_ is your idea of a “miracle”? That’s just pathetic. Duh. I think we already knew you don’t believe in miracles. One man’s miracle is the next guy’s hallucination. And no, that is not my idea of a miracle. Stop distorting what I wrote by omitting important adjectives. It was “minor miracle”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/40 "2013-01-21T21:14:23Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > It was “minor miracle”. It was a _random coincidence_, not a miracle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=3)