# evidence for god? some one said so. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896 "2013-01-21T08:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/541 "2013-02-18T14:34:39Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Yawn… the OP: Another ultra-cocky atheist who defines the rules of engagement the way _he_ wants. Sprinkle in some fact, non-fact, and conjecture. “200 years ago 1 in 3 didn’t live to 21..” I’ve read other atheists saying most everyone lived only to 45. Funny how in the Psalms it says the average human lifespan is 70 years - much closer to today, BTW. I took the scripture to mean we are capable of living to 70, and even 80 if some have enough strength. It’s not reporting it as a mean average of the general population. Many living thousands of years ago, didn’t make it to 25. There were plenty of wars being fought, famine, all sorts of diseases, and infant mortality to reckon with. The bible also records Adam living to be 930 years old, Noah 950, and Methuselah 969. Take this literally? Did the psalmist? > [@](#): > > But I will say this: In terms of Christianity specifically, you cannot ignore Pascal’s wager. Any self-preserving atheist has to consider the implied consequences of unbelief. Christians can and do ignore Pascal’s Wager, although some like yourself obviously still think it carries weight. It doesn’t. Pascal’s Wager has a multitude of problems. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/542 "2013-02-18T14:44:08Z")
Just wanted to shout out to **Czarcasm, Der Trihs** , and others who persist in engaging these tedious fools in arguments–don’t know where you get the strength. As long as I’m quoting from HAMLET, tho’, I thought I’d pass along an anecdote about Stacy Keach’s performance in the title role, in the Delacorte Theater in Central park in 1972, an open-air theater, by way of commenting on the "minor miracle’ of the wind blowing some papers away about ten pages back: I was sitting in the theater, enjoying Keach’s performance immensely, and it was a damp cloudy night but not raining until Keach reached the line, “Look you, the o’erhanging firmament…” when thunder cracked and the skies opened up exactly on cue. It poured, and Keach tried to persevere, but finally just shrugged and ran offstage as everyone sought cover. If this were to have happened in a religious setting, you’d never heard the fricken end of it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/543 "2013-02-18T15:11:24Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Just wanted to shout out to **Czarcasm, Der Trihs** , and others who persist in engaging these tedious fools in arguments–don’t know where you get the strength. My proving ground was **lekatt**. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/544 "2013-02-18T18:25:20Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > There are an infinite number of different conceivable gods that might exist. You have a 0% chance of getting the right one, assuming one exists at all. Additionally, many of those conceivable gods either a) don’t have a hell, b) don’t care at all what you do or believe, or c) actively reward using your brain and not taking things on faith. There is _just_ as much chance that one of those is ‘the real god’ as one of the spiteful asshole gods. > > No matter what god you pick, you’re almost certain to piss off ‘the real one’ (if he cares at all) by picking wrong. There’s just as much chance that ‘the real god’ isn’t interested in punishing you at all. Obviously implied by this: Christians are as likely to wind up in some kind of hell as atheists. Thus, Pascal’s wager is trivially disposed of. Completely invalid arguments because of one simple fact: Pascal’s Wager was devised entirely from within a Christian theological framework. The “which God?” question becomes nullified. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/545 "2013-02-18T18:25:40Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Just wanted to shout out to **Czarcasm, Der Trihs** , and others who persist in engaging these tedious fools in arguments–don’t know where you get the strength. It is kinda funny how at the top of every page you have the “Fighting ignorance since 1973” quote. It is indeed taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/546 "2013-02-18T18:28:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Of all the books in the Bible to take literally, he picks _Psalms_? What other books do you think are nothing but literal truth, **NormalDude**? It was fitting for the point. Psalms is neither fantasy nor allegorical. Psalms contains mostly emotion-driven poetry and can and does encapsulate historical fact, such as human life expectancy of those who weren’t killed while young. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/547 "2013-02-18T18:30:56Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Completely invalid arguments because of one simple fact: Pascal’s Wager was devised entirely from within a Christian theological framework. Then why does it apply to atheists? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/548 "2013-02-18T18:31:25Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > It was fitting for the point. Psalms is neither fantasy nor allegorical. Psalms contains mostly emotion-driven poetry and can and does encapsulate historical fact, such as human life expectancy of those who weren’t killed while young. How much of the Bible do you take literally? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/549 "2013-02-18T18:38:08Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Completely invalid arguments because of one simple fact: Pascal’s Wager was devised entirely from within a Christian theological framework. The “which God?” question becomes nullified. On what reasonable basis can all other religions be excluded from the wager? If the stakes of the wager are one’s eternal fate, all possible “winning” bets must be considered. If you read the wager, Pascal writes: > [@](#): > > If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is… And yet, despite this admission, Pascal goes on to narrow humanity’s options to either Catholicism or atheism. This is absurd; it is indeed assuming the correctness of itself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/550 "2013-02-18T18:46:10Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > And yet, despite this admission, Pascal goes on to narrow humanity’s options to either Catholicism or atheism. This is absurd; it is indeed assuming the correctness of itself. So Pascal’s Wager either applies to all religions, or it applies only to the Catholic faith. Would you happen to be Roman Catholic, **NormalDude**? ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/551 "2013-02-18T18:50:30Z")
Completely invalid arguments because of one simple fact: Pascal’s Wager was devised entirely from within a Christian theological framework. > [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then why does it apply to atheists? Great question! It either does not apply (if you chose not to engage) or it \*can \*apply. Here is how: Some detractors of PW would say that insincere beilief is not bona fide belief. Logical. However, again supposing there is a God, then the opening of the mind to possible belief is a bit like showing up at a door instead of discarding an invitation to an event. Once the doubter at least retracts from closedminded unbelief, again assuming there is a trinitarian God, then the Holy Spirit can plant that seed of true faith that has the potential to grow. One is no longer saying “no” they are saying , “let me explore this.” The thing about God is that he will never infringe upon your free will. Are all atheists locked into a permanent condition of closemindedness and “no?” I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/552 "2013-02-18T18:52:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So Pascal’s Wager either applies to all religions, or it applies only to the Catholic faith. > Would you happen to be Roman Catholic, **NormalDude**? And it should be noted that Pascal himself subscribed to a sub-sect of Catholicism called [Jansenism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jansenism), so the correct belief in God that Pascal would’ve endorsed is one that died out in the 18th century. ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/553 "2013-02-18T18:53:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > What if you believe in the wrong god? If you die and find out you failed to properly worship Zeus, or Vishnu, won’t the outcome be the same as an atheist who doesn’t believe in the Christian god? It’s worse… And what if we picked the wrong religion? Every week, we’re just making God madder and madder! – Homer Simpson, ``Homer the Heretic’’ ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/554 "2013-02-18T18:56:50Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Completely invalid arguments because of one simple fact: Pascal’s Wager was devised entirely from within a Christian theological framework. Are you a Jansenist Roman Catholic, by any chance? More to the point though, on what basis can it be taken as a given that the Christian theology is correct? What is the source of the assumption that underlies Pascal’s Wager? > [@NormalDude](#): > > Here is how: Some detractors of PW would say that insincere beilief is not bona fide belief. Logical. However, again supposing there is a God, then the opening of the mind to possible belief is a bit like showing up at a door instead of discarding an invitation to an event. Once the doubter at least retracts from closedminded unbelief, again assuming there is a trinitarian God, then the Holy Spirit can plant that seed of true faith that has the potential to grow. One is no longer saying “no” they are saying , “let me explore this.” The thing about God is that he will never infringe upon your free will. Are all atheists locked into a permanent condition of closemindedness and “no?” I doubt it. What is your basis for believing that there is a God who rewards faith? ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/555 "2013-02-18T18:57:37Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So Pascal’s Wager either applies to all religions, or it applies only to the Catholic faith. > Would you happen to be Roman Catholic, **NormalDude**? I think your assumption that because Pascal was of the Roman sect it can only be restricted to that sect. But he addresses a core common denominator to all of Christianity: Faith. From his world view Roman Catholicism being the dominant Christian presence, he did an excellent job distilling it down to that common denominator or core belief of all Christianity. He didn’t say anything about pennance or ritualistic actions, it is merely faith in a Christian God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/556 "2013-02-18T18:59:35Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > I think your assumption that because Pascal was of the Roman sect it can only be restricted to that sect. But he addresses a core common denominator to all of Christianity: Faith. From his world view Roman Catholicism being the dominant Christian presence, he did an excellent job distilling it down to that common denominator or core belief of all Christianity. He didn’t say anything about pennance or ritualistic actions, it is merely faith in a Christian God. I think your assumption that because Pascal was of the Christian sect it can only be restricted to that sect. But he addresses a core common denominator to most religions: Faith. ---
**Author:** ![NormalDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7993a0/32.png) [@NormalDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NormalDude)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/557 "2013-02-18T19:01:58Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > What is your basis for believing that there is a God who rewards faith? Faith and Jesus’ own words and supportive words of the apostles. Now if the only way to reap the benefits of God’s word is faith, then it emphasizes the importance of having that faith to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/558 "2013-02-18T19:04:38Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Now if the only way to reap the benefits of God’s word is faith, then it emphasizes the importance of having that faith to begin with. Then why does god reward atheists? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/559 "2013-02-18T19:05:18Z")
Additionally, NormalDude, is your god so easily fooled by your ingenuine “toadying and barefaced flattery” that he’d give you a pass to heaven for simply showing up and making mockery of him? What’s the minimum effort that your god requires for a passing mark? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/560 "2013-02-18T19:06:39Z")
> [@NormalDude](#): > > Faith and Jesus’ own words and supportive words of the apostles. What’s with the “and”? It’s like saying, “My family was there, and my mother and my father.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=29)