# evidence for god? some one said so. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896 "2013-01-21T08:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 32
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/621 "2013-03-01T16:25:34Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Creative thought just doesn’t materialize out of Thin air, that isn’t rationale. What did god materialize out of? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/622 "2013-03-01T16:32:16Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > It’s up to the naysayers to prove where Creativity comes from. If I see a painter painting, the obvious answer is it comes from his mind. When the painter dies, does he continue to create? If not, it is reasonable to conclude that his creativity died with him. If you have a supernatural explanation, then the burden is on you to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/623 "2013-03-01T16:32:48Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > It’s not for me to prove GOD or the divine exists. It’s up to the naysayers to prove where Creativity comes from. That wasn’t/isn’t/will never be true, no matter how many times religionists repeat it. “God” is _your_ extraordinary claim, so _you_ have to come up with the evidence. I need absolutlely no evidence to say “I don’t know yet, but I will try to find out.” BTW, my creativity came from me. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/624 "2013-03-01T16:36:23Z")
Your Creativity came from you? Define where in your body it came from. How did your brain create? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/625 "2013-03-01T16:42:20Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Your Creativity came from you? Define where in your body it came from. How did your brain create? Creativity isn’t a substance to be measured, it is a thought process. What are you getting at, and where is your evidence that it came from any god you may worship? ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/626 "2013-03-01T16:49:44Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Your Creativity came from you? Define where in your body it came from. How did your brain create? We don’t know for certain yet, but start with [Creative Innovation: Possible Brain Mechanisms](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14972752) by Heilman, Nadeu, and Beversdorf. > [@Abstract](#): > > This article reviews and develops some theories about the neurobiological basis of creative innovation (CI). CI is defined as the ability to understand and express novel orderly relationships. A high level of general intelligence, domain-specific knowledge and special skills are necessary components of creativity. Specialized knowledge is stored in specific portions of the temporal and parietal lobes. Some anatomic studies suggest that talented people might have alterations of specific regions of the posterior neocortical architecture, but further systematic studies are needed. Intelligence, knowledge and special skills, however, are not sufficient for CI. Developing alternative solutions or divergent thinking has been posited to be a critical element of CI, and clinical as well as functional imaging studies suggest that the frontal lobes are important for these activities. The frontal lobes have strong connections with the polymodal and supramodal regions of the temporal and parietal lobes where concepts and knowledge are stored. These connections might selectively inhibit and activate portions of posterior neocortex and thus be important for developing alternative solutions. Although extensive knowledge and divergent thinking together are critical for creativity they alone are insufficient for allowing a person to find the thread that unites. Finding this thread might require the binding of different forms of knowledge, stored in separate cortical modules that have not been previously associated. Thus, CI might require the co-activation and communication between regions of the brain that ordinarily are not strongly connected. The observations that CI often occurs during levels of low arousal and that many people with depression are creative suggests that alterations of neurotransmitters such as norepinephrine might be important in CI. High levels of norepinephrine, produced by high rates of locus coeruleus firing, restrict the breadth of concept representations and increase the signal to noise ratio, but low levels of norepinephrine shift the brain toward intrinsic neuronal activation with an increase in the size of distributed concept representations and co-activation across modular networks. In addition to being important in divergent thinking, the frontal lobes are also the primary cortical region that controls the locus coeruleus-norepinephrine system. Thus creative people may be endowed with brains that are capable of storing extensive specialized knowledge in their temporoparietal cortex, be capable of frontal mediated divergent thinking and have a special ability to modulate the frontal lobe-locus coeruleus (norepinephrine) system, such that during creative innovation cerebral levels of norepinephrine diminish, leading to the discovery of novel orderly relationships. So, people are working on it, and your God Of The Gaps will be shrinking again soon. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/627 "2013-03-01T16:51:57Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Your Creativity came from you? Define where in your body it came from. How did your brain create? My brain consists of chemical and electrical processes that are responsible for everything I do. If I admit I don’t know the mechanism of thought down to the quantum level, it still doesn’t support your claim that it comes from some supernatural source. It just means I am secure enough in my place in the universe to say, “I don’t know” without scrambling to fill that hole with supernatural beings. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/628 "2013-03-01T16:57:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > My brain consists of chemical and electrical processes that are responsible for everything I do. If I admit I don’t know the mechanism of thought down to the quantum level, it still doesn’t support your claim that it comes from some supernatural source. It just means I am secure enough in my place in the universe to say, “I don’t know” without scrambling to fill that hole with supernatural beings. Nobody’s scrambling to fill a hole, it just seems odd to me that rationale thought has an answer for everything, yet evidently it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/629 "2013-03-01T17:01:46Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Nobody’s scrambling to fill a hole, it just seems odd to me that rationale thought has an answer for everything, yet evidently it doesn’t. Who here has made that claim? Now, back to the actual subject: What evidence do you have for the existence of your god? ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/630 "2013-03-01T17:18:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Who here has made that claim? > Now, back to the actual subject: What evidence do you have for the existence of your god? Creativity. ---
**Author:** ![TeaRowz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@TeaRowz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaRowz)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/631 "2013-03-01T17:18:44Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am an atheist, and I do not exactly disagree with the substance of the OP, but the overconfident way in which it presents such a weak argument for atheism is absurd. Any atheist who cannot give an account of how and why it was that for thousands of years virtually everybody, including many extremely smart, open minded, and intellectually curious people, firmly believed in a god or gods, and why many very smart and knowledgeable people still do, even today, really ought to desist from arrogant rantings until they have figured that out. > > You can be quite sure, **Critical1** , that there are, and, throughout history, have been, many, many people much smarter than you (or me) who were well aware of the argument that you make, and believed in God just the same. Sadly, the point you make is all too true. However, when even the many religious leaders who have taught the religious ideas they absolutely believed in for years, finally realize they were wrong about everything, something planted the first seed of doubt. That something could have been a post at an online forum - even one that may not be a model of grammar, punctuation or spelling. People of religious faith may have read many, many arguments, but it may be a simple choice of words or a subtle difference in, or shade of meaning or expression in an argument that finally breaks through the nearly stubborn shell of religious belief. I think the OP realizes this, and is simply hoping to plant a seed of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/632 "2013-03-01T17:22:09Z")
> [@paul32](#): > > Right, so I guess you need to give me the example. With that definition of macro-evolution, I really mean a bigger evolution, but don’t know what supposedly happened. So dogs don’t turn into cats, but what did happen? What is the “path” from the first living cell to humans? I recommend that you read [The Ancestors Tale](http://www.amazon.com/Ancestors-Tale-Pilgrimage-Dawn-Evolution/dp/061861916X/ref=la_B000AQ3RBI_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1362158160&sr=1-6) by Richard Dawkins. (No discussion of religion that I remember.) As for cats and dogs, there was a common ancestor, I suppose fairly early. How are you related to a second cousin? No direct interactions, either for you or your parents - you just share a common ancestor. The longer ago that ancestor lived, the more unlike you will be from your cousin. > [@](#): > > Yes, I’ve studied it. Let’s just talk about the information theory, not biology. You actually think noise adds information? Noise corrupts information, and therefore limits channel capacity. Random noise is not information. Channel coding is designed to work in the presence of noise. Find me anything in communications that likes added noise. But noise has more information than a clear signal - say a constant 1. You are using a common, but incorrect, definition of information. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/633 "2013-03-01T17:22:15Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Creativity. …and bluebirds and butterflies and rainbows, right? Please show us the connection between Creativity and your god. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/634 "2013-03-01T17:22:52Z")
> [@ruben4ruben](#): > > PS 99% Of religion is a racket to make money or enslave people with lies. I totally agree that organized religion is a major cause of suffering. Let anyone be free to choose what they believe or don’t believe. I’m certain religion will be banned and wiped out soon. Can’t wait for the day. Of course, you are a member of the ‘one true’ religion that this doesn’t apply to, right? The one based on Watchtower teachings? Founded on numerology and the Great Pyramids? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/635 "2013-03-01T17:26:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What evidence do you have for the existence of your god? > [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Creativity. I think it is the other way around; creativity is responsible for the existence of god. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/636 "2013-03-01T17:27:01Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Evidence for God? Creativity. Where does it come from? Even Christopher Hitchens had to concede that Creativity wasn’t something that one could measure in scientific terms. There has to be some sort of Divine mechanics. Creative thought just doesn’t materialize out of Thin air, that isn’t rationale. > > So although there are lots of reasons to reject organized religion, I’ve yet to read an argument from an athesist that gives credibility to a man made rationalization for Creativity. Creativity can’t be measured because there are no good metrics for it. (I, he said proudly, have been measured as having one milli-Shakespeare of creativity!) So, it is not scientific in that sense, but neither is it spiritual. Creativity does not come for nothing, since nothing we do comes from nothing. But creativity is just exploring a region of the creative search space which has not been explored yet. It is remarkable that it happens, but not mysterious. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/637 "2013-03-01T17:28:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think it is the other way around; creativity is responsible for the existence of god. could also be argued that the lack of creativity is also responsible for the existence of god - no doubt that a lack of critical thinking is responsible for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/638 "2013-03-01T17:30:01Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Nobody’s scrambling to fill a hole, it just seems odd to me that rationale thought has an answer for everything, yet evidently it doesn’t. Rational thought is the only process secure enough to say, “I don’t know.” Religion is terrified of the unknown, and must fill it with fanciful beings and mythology so it isn’t so scary. ---
**Author:** ![TeaRowz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@TeaRowz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TeaRowz)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/639 "2013-03-01T17:30:14Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am an atheist, and I do not exactly disagree with the substance of the OP, but the overconfident way in which it presents such a weak argument for atheism is absurd. Any atheist who cannot give an account of how and why it was that for thousands of years virtually everybody, including many extremely smart, open minded, and intellectually curious people, firmly believed in a god or gods, and why many very smart and knowledgeable people still do, even today, really ought to desist from arrogant rantings until they have figured that out. > > You can be quite sure, **Critical1** , that there are, and, throughout history, have been, many, many people much smarter than you (or me) who were well aware of the argument that you make, and believed in God just the same. Sadly, the point you make is all too true. However, when even the many religious leaders who have taught the religious ideas they absolutely believed in for years, finally realize they were wrong about everything, something planted the first seed of doubt. That something could have been a post at an online forum - even one that may not be a model of grammar, punctuation or spelling. People of religious faith may have read many, many arguments, but it may be a simple choice of words or a subtle difference in, or shade of meaning or expression in an argument that finally breaks through the stubborn shell of religious belief. I think the OP realizes this, and is simply hoping to plant a seed of doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/640 "2013-03-01T17:36:11Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Your Creativity came from you? Define where in your body it came from. How did your brain create? If creativity comes from God, I, who am pretty creative, should be able to create music. I can’t, because I am tone deaf and quite ignorant about music. Beethoven, who was not, could be and was extremely creative, much of which came from working old concepts into new ideas. Choral music and symphonies were both known - Beethoven combined them. My creative ideas come from mixing up concepts from several different places together. I’ve read Hemingway, Shakespeare, Frost, and computer manuals - so I wrote a piece that gave a piece of a Windows manual as written by them. I also am familiar with old Mad Magazine pieces that did this kind of thing. No God or gods involved, I assure you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=31) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=33)