# evidence for god? some one said so. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896 "2013-01-21T08:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 35
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/681 "2013-03-01T20:00:59Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Doesn’t look like you have a better explanation. Because what you have are only theories that can’t accurately explain the creative process, the eureka moment that takes the mundane into the divine. Science has a better explaination for pretty much anything you care to name. Belief, on the other hand, is no closer to finding god than when it started. In fact one can argue that he’s only become smaller and harder to find. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/682 "2013-03-01T20:16:51Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Doesn’t look like you have a better explanation. Because what you have are only theories that can’t accurately explain the creative process, the eureka moment that takes the mundane into the divine. Let’s try to help you to think scientifically. If God is responsible for creativity, how would we expect creativity to be distributed? Believers versus non-believers? Randomly versus running in families? And how would creativity be expressed? Would you expect to see creative porn as well as creative Masses? ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/683 "2013-03-01T20:27:42Z")
Thanks but no thanks for your “help” Even your grand pooh-bah Christopher Hitchens admitted that there was something about the creative process he couldn’t explain. In his own words: “the sense that there is something beyond the material, or if not beyond it, not entirely consistent with it, is, I think, a very important matter of what you could call the numinist, or the transcendent or at its best, I suppose, the ecstatic. So to try to “help” by measuring creativity solely by scientific data does nothing to explain the essence of what Hitchens was suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/684 "2013-03-01T20:32:21Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Thanks but no thanks for your “help” > > Even your grand pooh-bah Christopher Hitchens admitted that there was something about the creative process he couldn’t explain. In his own words: “the sense that there is something beyond the material, or if not beyond it, not entirely consistent with it, is, I think, a very important matter of what you could call the numinist, or the transcendent or at its best, I suppose, the ecstatic. > > So to try to “help” by measuring creativity solely by scientific data does nothing to explain the essence of what Hitchens was suggesting. No thank you-that’s not what this thread is about. Do you have any evidence tying creativity to your god? ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/685 "2013-03-01T20:36:27Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > No thank you-that’s not what this thread is about. Do you have any evidence tying creativity to your god? Yep. Your leader thinks there’s divinity in the creative process. On that I agree with him. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/686 "2013-03-01T20:36:51Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > It’s the mystery of the Divine. I don’t know where the brilliance of Michaelangelo comes from, do you? I’d just like to say that this is among the lamest arguments for the existence of God that I’ve heard. We are animals. And we can think. Everything being on a continuum, some thinkers are going to be much better than others at particular aspects of intelligence. What you’re labeling as creativity are just natural human traits taken to extremes by training and random variation. Also, if creativity needs a source, where did God’s creativity come from? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/687 "2013-03-01T20:37:54Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Yep. Your leader thinks there’s divinity in the creative process. On that I agree with him. Unlike many of religions’ mythical characters, ours are often flawed and we are not required to rationalize their faults of reason. We also try not to put them up on quite so high a pedestal. Much easier to tear them down later. FWIW, Hitchens was also a prolific drinker. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/688 "2013-03-01T20:39:22Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’d just like to say that this is among the lamest arguments for the existence of God that I’ve heard. > > We are animals. And we can think. Everything being on a continuum, some thinkers are going to be much better than others at particular aspects of intelligence. What you’re labeling as creativity are just natural human traits taken to extremes by training and random variation. > > Also, if creativity needs a source, where did God’s creativity come from? Certainly not from your Big Bang Theory. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/689 "2013-03-01T20:40:22Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Unlike many of religions’ mythical characters, ours are often flawed and we are not required to rationalize their faults of reason. We also try not to put them up on quite so high a pedestal. Much easier to tear them down later. Oh now you’re negating Hitchens. Sweet. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/690 "2013-03-01T20:40:33Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Thanks but no thanks for your “help” > > Even your grand pooh-bah Christopher Hitchens admitted that there was something about the creative process he couldn’t explain. In his own words: “the sense that there is something beyond the material, or if not beyond it, not entirely consistent with it, is, I think, a very important matter of what you could call the numinist, or the transcendent or at its best, I suppose, the ecstatic. > > So to try to “help” by measuring creativity solely by scientific data does nothing to explain the essence of what Hitchens was suggesting. I can’t explain why you think this is persuasive. But you clearly do. You can’t explain to me what my office looks like. So what? Not knowing an explanation doesn’t mean the first hunk of religious gibberish someone comes up with is the correct answer. Religious people used to think the sky was a hard dome with water behind it. That’s what happens when you just decide that religious horseshit has all the answers. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/691 "2013-03-01T20:41:04Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Yep. Your leader thinks there’s divinity in the creative process. On that I agree with him. 1. I don’t have a “leader” 2. Mr. Hitchens never said that. 3. Even if he DID say that, you agreeing with someone elses’ statement is not evidence of anything. Did you bother to read the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/692 "2013-03-01T20:41:43Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Certainly not from your Big Bang Theory. I didn’t come up with the big bang theory. I will note that when shown to be utterly wrong, you have changed the subject instead of accepting that your beliefs are rubbish. Typical, that. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/693 "2013-03-01T20:41:49Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Dove77** , welcome to the Straight Dope! > > Oh, I’ve never claimed that my experience or my beliefs would be logical to anyone but me or one with a similar experience. If I am illogical about science, please feel easy in pointing it out. You really think that people make shit up all the time? It would be very silly to “make shit up” and then believe it. > > I have nowhere tossed out the Bible. I don’t believe most of the Pentateuch and some of the words of the other writers. And I know nothing about the Talmud. The rest has been explained in detail. “Jaweh” is not my favorite name for “her.” I like “I Am” most of all. It best fits with my beliefs and experiences. > > Long ago I taught debate. “Illogical” is appropriate to many of the things that you and **Der Trihs** have said. I’ve pointed them out _sometimes_. Are you offended by being called illogical? Are you familiar with syllogisms? (That’s a good place to start.) > > Atheism has been brought up multiple times also. So? String theory refers to multiple demensions (eleven of them). And the theory of “parallel universes” has arisen largely after the seeming contradictions of quantum physics were observed. (If I am mistaken in that fact, I would like to know.) > > I don’t know if God resides out of space/time. If “she” did, how would you know? > > No, my most profound experience did not relate to the religious traditions I knew growing up. Yes, I have also read and experienced various religions and beliefs. My experience was certainly far different from anything “traditional.” As I’ve said before, I did not even relate it to “God” at the time. I don’t believe in the “supernatural,” as I’ve also said before. “The Great Cosmic Glue” is not a name, but it is closer to how I perceive “God.” That is not very traditional, now, is it? The experience that I have mentioned is perhaps the foundation for my beliefs. > > “In every sense imaginable” is a big clue to your misunderstanding. God is not perceived by the five senses you’ve named – at least to me. But how many senses make up reality? Are we limited to those? Do people have a sense of time or a sense of direction? Some do and some don’t. I think there’s more. > > Is that how you see my posts? Have I tried to offer evidence? No. Then I haven’t failed. Have I whined about faith? No. Have I taken an attitude of “because I say so, that’s why!” Not at all. And, incidentally, I don’t think that people can choose to have faith or not have faith. Either you believe or you don’t. I can respect that in anyone. What I don’t like are opinions that are stated as fact and illogical reasoning when one’s claims are supposedly based on logic. One thing that is a proven fact: there is’ NOTHING’ ever written, said or taught that wasn’t the work or idea of some human. Our beliefs are based on a human no God! ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/694 "2013-03-01T20:43:38Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Oh now you’re negating Hitchens. Sweet. Not at all. Just trying to prevent you from building a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/695 "2013-03-01T20:44:51Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Oh now you’re negating Hitchens. Sweet. Hitchens was a fine thinker. But he clearly could be wrong. He supported the Iraq War. That said, you are trying to find a neeneer neeneer where there are none. Not knowing where something comes from is an honest answer. Asserting a childish invisible friend as the cause for something isn’t productive. ---
**Author:** ![Andiethewestie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba9def/32.png) [@Andiethewestie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andiethewestie)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/696 "2013-03-01T20:45:04Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I can’t explain why you think this is persuasive. But you clearly do. > > You can’t explain to me what my office looks like. So what? Not knowing an explanation doesn’t mean the first hunk of religious gibberish someone comes up with is the correct answer. Religious people used to think the sky was a hard dome with water behind it. That’s what happens when you just decide that religious horseshit has all the answers. And Rationalists used to think the world was flat. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/697 "2013-03-01T20:45:57Z")
**Andiethewestie** , which of the thousand gods are you referring to? What sect do you follow? ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/698 "2013-03-01T20:46:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > 1. Mr. Hitchens never said that. He did, but it doesn’t mean what Andiethewestie thinks it means. Hitchens was an atheist. > [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Oh now you’re negating Hitchens. Sweet. See post 654. We atheists don’t have a leader and I’ve disagreed with a ton of stuff other atheists have said, including Hitchens. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/699 "2013-03-01T20:47:06Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > And Rationalists used to think the world was flat. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/700 "2013-03-01T20:48:42Z")
> [@Andiethewestie](#): > > Oh now you’re negating Hitchens. Sweet. Hitchens was just a man. He wasn’t a good philosopher. He was great at rhetoric. You act as though atheist’s should treat him like Jesus - ie, infallible. How…odd… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=34) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=36)