# evidence for god? some one said so. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896 "2013-01-21T08:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/61 "2013-01-22T02:32:39Z")
> [@Devilboots](#): > > Well speaking only for myself (an atheist to the core) your belief in God doesn’t bother me at all once we’ve established a few things; > 1)You and your religion don’t have a problem with me being an atheist. > 2)You don’t believe that I’m going to hell because and only because I don’t believe in your god. > 3)You don’t believe certain characteristics/traits that people are born with make them sinful (being gay, black, a women, human, ect.) > > If we can meet on those things then you can believe all sorts of nonsense and I won’t raise an eyebrow. I won’t agree with you that you’re right either but that’s a debate I leave to others. I consider your beliefs none of my business, don’t have any idea who’s going to hell or if anyone is, and haven’t the slightest idea what constitutes a sin for another person, only for myself. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/62 "2013-01-22T02:35:29Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > I’d have a slightly easier time taking you seriously if you used capital letters once in awhile to start sentences. > > Stop the presses! Another atheist trying to use science to prove God doesn’t exist. Nevermind that it’s impossible to prove a negative. Has it ever occurred to you that God and the scientific method can coexist, and that the very definition of “faith” in God or anything else is “belief without proof”? **Critical1** has been told once before [that punctuation and formatting kinda matter.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15914590&postcount=36) **Critical1** , there are posters who are less likely to take you seriously if you post like a pre-teen. Show some respect for the people you wish to interact with by posting like an adult. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/63 "2013-01-22T02:41:04Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I wonder if you and **Der Trihs** appreciate the irony of atheists and theists who carry such similar chips on their shoulders. You find the notion that someone can have beliefs which conflict with yours to be unacceptable. Me, I really don’t care what other people believe. It’s quite a Zen-like attitude. I happen to be a theist, and can assure you that your post shook my faith more than anything else in my experience over the past year. I’d long since made my peace with the idea that any given religious claim might be anything from a vivid hallucination to a made-up story from a con artist, and innumerable claims about some devoutly hoped-for result: illnesses going into remission after tearful prayers, say. _Yes,_ I’ve often thought to myself, _I can see how that would give rise to false beliefs. It certainly makes me wonder about my own beliefs._ But the sheer earnest sincerity in your claim that _“I was present at a minor miracle once”_ left me genuinely fretting: what if this, and only this, is all there ever really was, at the start? What if religion began not with cynical hucksters or chemical imbalances or an aching need for deliverance, but – just some dude who honestly figured this sort of utterly mundane occurrence must have been a supernatural entity at work? That’s a concept I hadn’t truly come to terms with before: a frightening, even horrifying concept. I’m going to need a lot of time on this one. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/64 "2013-01-22T02:59:57Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > I happen to be a theist, and can assure you that your post shook my faith more than anything else in my experience over the past year. > > I’d long since made my peace with the idea that any given religious claim might be anything from a vivid hallucination to a made-up story from a con artist, and innumerable claims about some devoutly hoped-for result: illnesses going into remission after tearful prayers, say. _Yes,_ I’ve often thought to myself, _I can see how that would give rise to false beliefs. It certainly makes me wonder about my own beliefs._ > > But the sheer earnest sincerity in your claim that _“I was present at a minor miracle once”_ left me genuinely fretting: what if this, and only this, is all there ever really was, at the start? What if religion began not with cynical hucksters or chemical imbalances or an aching need for deliverance, but – just some dude who honestly figured this sort of utterly mundane occurrence must have been a supernatural entity at work? > > That’s a concept I hadn’t truly come to terms with before: a frightening, even horrifying concept. I’m going to need a lot of time on this one. Your candor and emotional outpouring shook my faith as well. I immediately went on Amazon and ordered “the god delusion.” I suspect your story will resonate with many of us, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it doesn’t start an avalanche of theists reevaluating their beliefs. Thanks for sharing. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/65 "2013-01-22T03:30:31Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I wonder if you and **Der Trihs** appreciate the irony of atheists and theists who carry such similar chips on their shoulders. I disagree with your assertion but, for the sake of the debate, let’s stipulate the chip. > [@Mr.Duality](#): > > You find the notion that someone can have beliefs which conflict with yours to be unacceptable. No, I do not; I find it distressing that others’ beliefs, primarily Christian beliefs, have been increasingly and legislatively designed to negatively affect my life, my wife’s biology, curtail the rights and livelihoods of those who are simply trying to live productively in peace, love, and happiness and, if I had children, their educations. I’d have little problem with believers believing whatever mythology floats their boats, as illogical as it is, as long as it wouldn’t impact nonbelievers lives in any way. > [@Mr.Duality](#): > > Me, I really don’t care what other people believe. It’s quite a Zen-like attitude. Sure you do. You wouldn’t have contributed to this thread otherwise, but that’s okay. As far as miracles go, no, I don’t believe in them. There has never been verifiable proof that miracles have ever occurred, but as crazy as most claims of miracles are, I accept that the human mind is ‘wired’ to create an explanation when one doesn’t readily exist, and the bigger and more unexplainable the event, the more likely there will be a claim of the miraculous and, although I think this is ridiculous, I accept that it happens. I do admit to a visceral roll-eye when you stated your “minor miracle” because, after reading your post, I realize that this means that any coincidental confluence of events in a religious setting, literally any, is probably considered a miracle by someone. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/66 "2013-01-22T03:58:50Z")
> [@Doubticus](#): > > True, but it was mainly to refute absolutists than bolster average believers. Absolutists don’t seem to use the “we can’t be sure” argument, because they are sure - facts be damned. Those who believe in God and realize there isn’t any real evidence are more likely to use the science can’t disprove it argument. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/67 "2013-01-22T04:04:47Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > As we developed more advanced techniques of observation and recording of information, and eventually the scientific method, the area of the unknowable shrank. It was even thought that eventually everything could be explained. Now we know that was wrong. _The existence of unprovable theorems has been proven._ If you want something more obviously scientific we could substitute information’s inability to traverse a singularity. > > Anyway, we now know that, while the area of the unknown is ever shrinking, that it cannot shrink to nothing. This does not prove the existence of a sky-daddy, it just shows that we will always, in some small way at least, be the primitive soul doing our imperfect best to understand our universe. In this way religion and science are similar. > > This is how I can be an atheist, and at the same time completely comfortable bowing to convention and using the word ‘God’ as shorthand for ‘the set of all that is unknowable’. If you are going to use this argument, you’d do much better with Heisenberg rather than Godel (or Turing.) Or event horizons - God can be lurking 14 billion l.y. away. I think it would be a hard argument for anyone to make to say the Halting Problem implies that there might be a god. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Duality](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.duality/32/4098_2.png) [@Mr.Duality](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Duality)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/68 "2013-01-22T04:55:18Z")
> [@Onomatopoeia](#): > > You wouldn’t have contributed to this thread otherwise, but that’s okay. I contributed to this thread to get some intellectual exercise and to give people some food for thought. My work here is done. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/69 "2013-01-22T05:22:11Z")
> [@Mr.Duality](#): > > I contributed to this thread to get some intellectual exercise and to give people some food for thought. > > My work here is done. And the next time you pop in with an anecdote or opinion we’ll know exactly what it’s worth. Your last sentence may be true…but not for the reason you think. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/70 "2013-01-22T13:19:19Z")
There is no evidence for a God that is why it is belief, once there is evidence than it will no longer be faith. There is belief in evidence that is why we bring people suspected of a crime to court for trial, many times the evdience is proven to be wrong! Many years later the truth comes out and the accused is set free. Belief is just that Belief. It can work for good or bad, depending on how it is used. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/71 "2013-01-22T13:24:09Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > There is no evidence for a God that is why it is belief, once there is evidence than it will no longer be faith. There is belief in evidence that is why we bring people suspected of a crime to court for trial, many times the evdience is proven to be wrong! Many years later the truth comes out and the accused is set free. Belief is just that Belief. It can work for good or bad, depending on how it is used. You are trying to equate faith based on previous evidence with faith based on no evidence, and that is rather obviously a no go. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/72 "2013-01-22T14:52:21Z")
> [@raindog](#): > > **Critical1** has been told once before [that punctuation and formatting kinda matter.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15914590&postcount=36) > > **Critical1** , there are posters who are less likely to take you seriously if you post like a pre-teen. Show some respect for the people you wish to interact with by posting like an adult. Good spelling and punctuation are appreciated around here, but this is junior modding and that’s rarely appreciated. Please stick to discussing the substance of the posts - ask for clarification if they’re hard to read or ignore them if it’s too much of a headache. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/73 "2013-01-23T02:08:08Z")
> [@Hank\_Beecher](#): > > The incompleteness theorems prove that the kingdom of science will never completely conquer the realm of God. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > There is no “realm of God” any more than there is a God or gods in the first place… **Der Trihs**! Dude. Calm down. He just misspelled **Gödel**. And misunderstood what he was reading. No need to go ballistic about it. The _meaning_ of the [incompleteness theorems](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems) are not exactly _obvious_ to someone who’s sole expertise has been to read [_"Gödel, Escher, Bach_"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del,_Escher,_Bach). ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/74 "2013-01-23T13:44:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You are trying to equate faith based on previous evidence with faith based on no evidence, and that is rather obviously a no go. What evidence are you referring to? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/75 "2013-01-23T13:47:51Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > What evidence are you referring to? I have faith that my carpool buddy will pick me up this morning, because he hasn’t failed to do so to date-Faith, backed up by Evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/76 "2013-01-23T16:39:07Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I have faith that my carpool buddy will pick me up this morning, because he hasn’t failed to do so to date-Faith, backed up by Evidence. I’d call that trust, not faith. The lack of evidence seems to be a defining feature of faith. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/77 "2013-01-23T16:44:36Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’d call that trust, not faith. The lack of evidence seems to be a defining feature of faith. I’d think a total lack of evidence pushes it into the realm of _blind_ faith. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/78 "2013-01-23T19:17:43Z")
tough to debate someone who starts the debate by name calling his opponents: "…well that and the part of our monkey mind that is too stupid to separate fact from fiction, truth from a well told lie, and reality from the world inside our self deluded brains. " So if I do belive in God than i’m a monkey mind living in a self deluded world? If you think that about people who believe in God than how could anything they say make a difference to you? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/79 "2013-01-23T19:24:50Z")
By referring to “our” monkey minds, I think the OP is referring to the whole human race, no just those who believe in gods. ---
**Author:** ![Dob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Dob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dob)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/80 "2013-01-23T19:27:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By referring to “our” monkey minds, I think the OP is referring to the whole human race, no just those who believe in gods. on review, you might be right. however, point still stands. If we are all monkey minded self deluded how can anything we say be taken seriously or debated? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=5)