# evidence for god? some one said so. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896 "2013-01-21T08:55:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/161 "2013-01-28T12:51:29Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > Nowhere did I ever say that someone’s religious beliefs should be the law of the land. In Howard Storm’s book he brings up exactly what you brought up about religion when he asked Jesus what the best religion is. In a nutshell, it was “whatever religion leads you closer to God.” There’s more to it but you can read the book if you wish. As for Howard Storm being an intellectual not necessarily meaning that he is “right” about anything supernatural: My point was that you had brought up people in mental institutions having similar experiences. Perhaps I misunderstood but it appeared that you were trying to say that because mental patients had similar experiences that suddenly that invalidates everything Howard Storm experienced. I was not implying that Howad was not mentally sound, just that an experience of what one can consider the surpernatural, comes from inside their own brain. One tends to go with one’s desires and he may well have wanted something to bring him to belief .I don’t believe his experiences are any more valid than if an athiest was religious and then saw the contradictions in the Bible that led them to no longer believe, and maybe because it is the athiests I know were religious, and then found they no longer believed. I also know of a man who thought Jesus was living in him and even though he was a very good man was sent to a mental hospital because he got too involved in his thinking. and also a relative that also spent time in a mental hospital for visions etc. she was fasting etc. to save the world and atone for her and the sins of others, it was her lack of proper diet that caused her to have illusions, just as an alcholic can have visions of rats etc. The human mind is very complex. Faith isn’t based on intellect but desire. ---
**Author:** ![Hottius\_Maximus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hottius\_Maximus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hottius_Maximus)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/162 "2013-01-28T12:58:53Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > **Hottius Maximus,** from what little I know of him, I don’t think anyone knows the extent of his atheism or if he even was an atheist. And becoming a believer doesn’t make those arguments he had as an atheist go away, they would be just as valid if he ever gave these things any thought at all. I never see any address this aspect after they convert. Surely some could come forward and recall if he was really like this. He could possibly direct us to something in print prior to conversion, or some interviews, students, family, or other people that can at least try to substantiate some of this. Do you know if he does? > > But I don’t think that is his biggest problem. Look at the conversation he claims he had with Jesus and angels from that site I gave you. The questions he’s asking Jesus and the angels are like lobbing soft balls, with the standard answers you’d get out of any charlatan, astrologist, mind reader, psalmist, mentalist etc. Not sure why it doesn’t send up a huge red flag with some. There would have been many convincing things he could have come back with that would have changed plenty with certain answers to certain questions or to events in the near future he could have predicted, but instead he gives us what we read in the link. > > Concerning Hume, most go to his Miracles section in the _Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding_ that you can read on-line. Hume doesn’t dismiss miracles outright, but does say the evidence must be as extraordinary as the claim before one should accept them as true. He basically relates to you how we know nature works, but also know how men knowingly or not bend the facts and is common occurrence, and asks you to weigh one with the other. > > Storm provides us with his personal testimonial which doesn’t appear to have any other evidence to go on. There are hundreds, probably thousands of such testimonials in book form like his in Christian book stores shelves everywhere. It comes down to what you want to accept as good evidence, and too many times believers and unbelievers have different standards on what constitute such. Believers seem to always be more easily swayed by testimonials, power of suggestion, anecdotes, and are much more trusting of those that tell them such stories. Unbelievers tend to put more credence in nature, and trying to understand how it works, and doing what Hume did, and wait for the extraordinary evidence to match the extraordinary claim. Actually his family members and former colleagues have validated Howard Storm’s atheism prior to his experience. I don’t notice that you gave any link but I will go back and check (I actually need to leave for work in a few minutes so I apologize for the too quick response here). I will also check to see if he has an e-mail where you can ask him questions. FYI–I know that many believers just want to believe even though the testimony may be questionable (2 infamous examples of this would be the author of “23 Minutes In Hell” and Michael Warnke’s “The Satan Seller”) nonetheless I don’t think Howard Storm’s story can be that easily invalidated. If I can find Howard Storm’s e-mail address, I will certainly add it here in a future post. However, I ask again: would it have made a difference to you if for example instead of Howard Storm that the experience would have happened to Penn Jillette, Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchens, or Richard Dawkins or somebody else that was more famous for their non-belief and contempt of religion? ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/163 "2013-01-28T16:52:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’d love to see you try to use someone’s testimony that God told him John Smith was innocent in court. > Someone saying that they felt God is testimony that they thought they felt God, and I believe them. It is not even close to being evidence that there is a God for them to feel. Look at the many people who felt they were abducted by aliens back when that was popular. Do you give them equal credence as you want us to give you? > We know that the brain is a wonderful thing, and generates all sorts of internal stimuli. When I am in a boring meeting after lunch and sleepy I hallucinate all kinds of things, but I’m not prepared to create a religion based on them. > Next time you have a God experience, ask him for something solid and verifiable. If not, I put your experience in the same class as alien abductions and mirages. I’m not likely to want to prove the existence of God in court, nor would I try. But “I saw…,” "I heard…, " “I felt…” is evidence of a kind used used in court all the time. And if humans are testifying it is always subject to interpretation and error. The fact remains that people are convicted of crimes and deprived of their liberty based on testimonial evidence alone all the time. Juries accept it (when they do) presumably because they find it plausible and in accord with their experience and knowledge of what happened, and the witness believable. You can put my experience in whatever category you like of course and I didn’t ask you to give me any credence at all. But it isn’t logical to assume that anyone who has had such an experience is a liar or crazy–without any “evidence” to support that assumption. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/164 "2013-01-28T17:04:05Z")
> [@huck](#): > > I’m not likely to want to prove the existence of God in court, nor would I try. > > But “I saw…,” "I heard…, " “I felt…” is evidence of a kind used used in court all the time. And if humans are testifying it is always subject to interpretation and error. The fact remains that people are convicted of crimes and deprived of their liberty based on testimonial evidence alone all the time. Juries accept it (when they do) presumably because they find it plausible and in accord with their experience and knowledge of what happened, and the witness believable. But not when a large mass of so-called witnesses give entirely contradictory information. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/165 "2013-01-28T21:09:41Z")
> [@Hottius\_Maximus](#): > > Actually his family members and former colleagues have validated Howard Storm’s atheism prior to his experience. I don’t notice that you gave any link but I will go back and check (I actually need to leave for work in a few minutes so I apologize for the too quick response here). I will also check to see if he has an e-mail where you can ask him questions. FYI–I know that many believers just want to believe even though the testimony may be questionable (2 infamous examples of this would be the author of “23 Minutes In Hell” and Michael Warnke’s “The Satan Seller”) nonetheless I don’t think Howard Storm’s story can be that easily invalidated. If I can find Howard Storm’s e-mail address, I will certainly add it here in a future post. However, I ask again: would it have made a difference to you if for example instead of Howard Storm that the experience would have happened to Penn Jillette, Bill Maher, Christopher Hitchens, or Richard Dawkins or somebody else that was more famous for their non-belief and contempt of religion? There have been unbelievers that were similarly thought dead on the operating table or elsewhere, and nothing happened to them. Some do experience the light and tunnel, see other loved ones that have passed, and other things, but they didn’t think it was an actual event going on and remained unbelievers and no desire to all of a sudden join a church. Sorry, I only have it in book form, but did find a link for you [here.](http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/david_hume/human_understanding.html) Scroll down a little past half until you get to his Miracle section: Part I page 86. Thanks for offering his address, but honestly my interest in talking to such people has kind of faded over the years. Having culled over hundreds of claimants from the James Randi Foundation, and also the CSCIOP journals, and meeting a few in person, I still find some of the characters interesting, but don’t consider the stories as actually factual the way they present it, and I certainly don’t consider it supernatural. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/166 "2013-01-29T07:26:34Z")
> [@](#): > > **Critical1** : So far all I have seen from the side of the believers is rampant confirmation bias. You are that far into their heads? Mine was unlike anything I had experienced before. But, again, I didn’t see or speak to a deity. It was not like anything I had ever even dreamed of. When I learned just a little bit about string theory, some of it made a little sense in relation to my experience. But I know so little. > [@](#): > > **Voyager** : But if your beliefs are based on evidence and logic, and some other belief is based on discredited evidence, wishful thinking, and the lack of logic, you can certainly say that your belief is more true than the other one. Maybe you have two sides to your brain for a reason. (And I have no quarrel with these experiences being brain-based. That doesn’t logically mean wrong, now, does it?) I took one of those right-brain, left-brain tests. I wasn’t all that surprised when both sides were equally balanced. I don’t know if all of that has been discredited now or not. It was a big “brain science” theory many years ago. And sometimes even scientists “misunderstand” or “misinterpret.” Could be there was a little _confirmation bias_ on the part of the scientists. And scientists do seem to “contradict” each other now and then. When more detailed information came in about the rings of Saturn fifteen or twenty years ago, Carl Sagan said that what had been learned might be in contradiction to known physical laws. I think he later backed down. I don’t have any less respect for him because of it. I like my scientists to be open-minded. The same with skeptics. [quote **razncane:** : Unbelievers tend to put more credence in nature, and trying to understand how it works, and doing what Hume did, and wait for the extraordinary evidence to match the extraordinary claim.[/quote] Some spiritual people put a lot of credence in nature, yes. Don’t scientists? I don’t believe in the supernatural; I just think of “it” as natural. > [@](#): > > **Czarcasm** : But not when a large mass of so-called witnesses give entirely contradictory information. Still can’t tell if you are talking about a court room or those who talk about their personal experiences. They are not exact metaphors for each other. Testimony in a court room can be very contradictory. So people throw it all out? Nyah. Also, when people are talking about their varying personal experiences, they may be different, but not necessarily contradictory. Over time I’ve learned to notice certain specific parts of many, many personal experiences that are unusual and would seem strange and unbelievable to atheists. But they are described over and over again. I’m to the point where I **tend** not to believe people now who don’t mention them when they describe their experiences. (That’s a bias of mine and is may not be accurate at all.) And I’m not saying that atheists don’t have these experiences and remain atheists. Trees in an uncut forest all seem to follow a certain physical pattern. That’s part of fractal knowledge. But what wipes me out is that the arrangement of all the trees in relation to each other is in the same pattern. “How do it know”? (Just curious.) ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/167 "2013-01-29T13:44:27Z")
> [@huck](#): > > I’m not likely to want to prove the existence of God in court, nor would I try. > > But “I saw…,” "I heard…, " “I felt…” is evidence of a kind used used in court all the time. And if humans are testifying it is always subject to interpretation and error. The fact remains that people are convicted of crimes and deprived of their liberty based on testimonial evidence alone all the time. Juries accept it (when they do) presumably because they find it plausible and in accord with their experience and knowledge of what happened, and the witness believable. > > You can put my experience in whatever category you like of course and I didn’t ask you to give me any credence at all. But it isn’t logical to assume that anyone who has had such an experience is a liar or crazy–without any “evidence” to support that assumption. The belief in Jesus,God etc. comes from what was written from a human being who told of his thoughts and people believed him. But if it hadn’t been for the people believeing the Bible is the word of God or inspired by him, they may not be believers at all, their beliefs are based on the belief of other human beings who have no more knowledge of a God than an athiest.Strong belief is still belief, fact is another thing! Because a group of men got together in the 300’s and declared it was the word of God or inspired by him, doesn’t make it fact. ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2013, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/168 "2013-01-29T14:52:40Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > The belief in Jesus,God etc. comes from what was written from a human being who told of his thoughts and people believed him. But if it hadn’t been for the people believeing the Bible is the word of God or inspired by him, they may not be believers at all, their beliefs are based on the belief of other human beings who have no more knowledge of a God than an athiest.Strong belief is still belief, fact is another thing! > > Because a group of men got together in the 300’s and declared it was the word of God or inspired by him, doesn’t make it fact. I’m not sure why you quoted me. I didn’t say anything about the bible. Do you mean that those who have had visions of God would not have had them but for knowledge of the bible? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/169 "2013-01-30T13:22:19Z")
> [@huck](#): > > I’m not sure why you quoted me. I didn’t say anything about the bible. Do you mean that those who have had visions of God would not have had them but for knowledge of the bible? I think it is from the Bible or the teachings of some other person. There are people who believe in a different God, but most who believe in an Abrahamic God, either heard, read, or was taught, about the Biblical God. No one knows anything about a God just what they got from others, or some decided on their own, there is no proof for a God and must be taken on belief. I think visions of a God come from the desire for there to be one. Since no one knows if a thought ,experience etc. that comes from a God, or their own mind, based on what they have heard that appeals to them, or the desire for one One can just as well accept the Muslim God spoke to Muhammad through an angel, as any of the Biblical people I don’t believe God would be telling different people, different( and even contradictory things), or Howard! ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/170 "2013-01-30T15:31:20Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think visions of a God come from the desire for there to be one. Since no one knows if a thought ,experience etc. that comes from a God, or their own mind, based on what they have heard that appeals to them, or the desire for one Certainly that makes sense. I would say people in general would like to feel that they would continue to exist in some form after they die. Also, for people facing extreme pressure or challenges, they would like to believe that there’s a reward for persevering. Otherwise, they would simply give up. Also, if people need to make a tough ethical decision, they would probably like the idea of a Heavenly Father helping them make the decision. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/171 "2013-01-30T15:35:31Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Certainly that makes sense. I would say people in general would like to feel that they would continue to exist in some form after they die. Also, for people facing extreme pressure or challenges, they would like to believe that there’s a reward for persevering. Otherwise, they would simply give up. Also, if people need to make a tough ethical decision, they would probably like the idea of a Heavenly Father helping them make the decision. I’m an atheist, and I haven’t given up, and I make tough ethical decisions all the time without the need of your god. Would you like to try again? ---
**Author:** ![huck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@huck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/huck)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/172 "2013-01-30T16:11:52Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think it is from the Bible or the teachings of some other person. There are people who believe in a different God, but most who believe in an Abrahamic God, either heard, read, or was taught, about the Biblical God. No one knows anything about a God just what they got from others, or some decided on their own, there is no proof for a God and must be taken on belief. > > I think visions of a God come from the desire for there to be one. Since no one knows if a thought ,experience etc. that comes from a God, or their own mind, based on what they have heard that appeals to them, or the desire for one > > One can just as well accept the Muslim God spoke to Muhammad through an angel, as any of the Biblical people I don’t believe God would be telling different people, different( and even contradictory things), or Howard! I guess I still don’t really follow you. Yes, I’ve read the New Testament and certainly it may be true that some inner need or desire for God to exist underlies my belief. But, respectfully, so what? Anyone’s testimony about anything is filtered through that person’s knowledge and experience. You are free to judge my account however you choose of course, but you can’t know that it is not genuine, or even reasonably conclude it isn’t, without knowing something about me and the circumstances. And as for evidence being contradictory–if 12 people say 12 different things bout a car crash or a crime, you can’t reasonably assume they are all crazy or lying. Sorry for the sidetrack. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/173 "2013-01-31T12:58:16Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Certainly that makes sense. I would say people in general would like to feel that they would continue to exist in some form after they die. Also, for people facing extreme pressure or challenges, they would like to believe that there’s a reward for persevering. Otherwise, they would simply give up. Also, if people need to make a tough ethical decision, they would probably like the idea of a Heavenly Father helping them make the decision. As I see it death is a change, one’s atoms etc. go back to where they came, Just as a flower or animal. We were a part of our ancestors and the circle of life goes on. If some one believes in a better place after they have died and it helps them to live a better life I see no harm in it. It is a personal belief and for many belief is hope, and one way to make one’s life better for them.But if one just lives to die they miss out on a lot of things. I believe I was born to live now, in the best way I can. I know some day I will die but I also believe that I may not know anything because I am dead. Perhaps I will just be part of the universe again. I realize it is also just my belief, and there are people who do know a lot more than I do. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/174 "2013-01-31T13:52:06Z")
> [@huck](#): > > And as for evidence being contradictory–if 12 people say 12 different things bout a car crash or a crime, you can’t reasonably assume they are all crazy or lying. Or mistaken. If twelve different people say twelve different(and most often contradictory) things, what is done next is that the testimony is compared to any hard evidence to see what matches. The problem here is that there is no hard evidence to compare the testimony to, so there is absolutely no way to see which testimony is the most accurate. Let’s say that there is a 10ftx10ft cube of an unknown material that cannot be opened or x-rayed. Twelve different people claim that they know the cube is hollow and that they know what is in the box because a voice told them, but they describe twelve different things. What are the chances that any of them are correct, _when you don’t even know if the cube is hollow or not?_ ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/175 "2013-01-31T14:30:25Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I realize it is also just my belief, and there are people who do know a lot more than I do. Of all things, Michael Sahaara’s book Killer Angels got me interested in religion again. It’s a novel about the Battle of Gettysburg and he tried to find the religious historical Gen. Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg. Gen. Lee was a southern gentleman that happened to represent the southern forces at Gettysburg. It was clearly a losing proposition for him. No matter what happened at the battle, plenty of young men were going to die at Gettysburg and he knew it. He always treated his slaves decently, so he had few qualms about slavery. When his home state Virginia pulled out of the union, he felt he had no choice but to command the Army of Virginia. At Gettysburg, he knew that he was sending men to their deaths. On the night before Pickett’s Charge. He was praying to God, and basically said what you did. He thought that Gettysburg might be the South’s last chance to win the war. Finally, after much prayer he realized that he was just a servant of God. He realized that he would never fully understand God’s grand plan, his job was to merely act on behalf of God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/176 "2013-01-31T15:26:15Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Of all things, Michael Sahaara’s book Killer Angels got me interested in religion again. It’s a novel about the Battle of Gettysburg and he tried to find the religious historical Gen. Robert E. Lee at Gettysburg. Gen. Lee was a southern gentleman that happened to represent the southern forces at Gettysburg. > > It was clearly a losing proposition for him. > > No matter what happened at the battle, plenty of young men were going to die at Gettysburg and he knew it. > > He always treated his slaves decently, so he had few qualms about slavery. > > When his home state Virginia pulled out of the union, he felt he had no choice but to command the Army of Virginia. > > At Gettysburg, he knew that he was sending men to their deaths. On the night before Pickett’s Charge. He was praying to God, and basically said what you did. He thought that Gettysburg might be the South’s last chance to win the war. Finally, after much prayer he realized that he was just a servant of God. He realized that he would never fully understand God’s grand plan, his job was to merely act on behalf of God. So what. If your god gives _contradictory_ facts to two different people, how do you determine which(if any) is correct, and how do you account for the fact that(if there is a god) _he lied to one of them?_ ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/177 "2013-01-31T15:33:47Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So what. > If your god gives _contradictory_ facts to two different people, how do you determine which(if any) is correct, and how do you account for the fact that(if there is a god) _he lied to one of them?_ I dare any of the active religions in this world to tell me how tall God is. Or whether He is a Man or a Woman. What I’m trying to say is that we, none of us know the basic facts about God. However, there are some people who believe that they know what God values. Values are far more abstract than God’s height. All I’m saying is personally, I do not believe any religion fully knows the nature of God. My Christian Church actually asked a Jewish Rabbi to give a mass to our Christian congregation. To me my church was doing the right thing. The church needs to be open-minded if they are going to make progress. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/178 "2013-01-31T15:52:46Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > I dare any of the active religions in this world to tell me how tall God is. Or whether He is a Man or a Woman. What I’m trying to say is that we, none of us know the basic facts about God. > > However, there are some people who believe that they know what God values. Values are far more abstract than God’s height. > > All I’m saying is personally, I do not believe any religion fully knows the nature of God. > > My Christian Church actually asked a Jewish Rabbi to give a mass to our Christian congregation. To me my church was doing the right thing. The church needs to be open-minded if they are going to make progress. Non sequitur. If your god gives contradictory facts to two different people, how do you determine which(if any) is correct, and how do you account for the fact that(if there is a god) he lied to one of them? ---
**Author:** ![pchaos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/258eb7/32.png) [@pchaos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pchaos)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/179 "2013-01-31T15:57:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Non sequitur. > If your god gives contradictory facts to two different people, how do you determine which(if any) is correct, and how do you account for the fact that(if there is a god) he lied to one of them? Again, let’s go back to the idea of a rational argument. I suppose to most scientists, rational means that you can have only one conclusion. I disagree. If people are starting at different premises, even if a rational argument is being made, the people will be going different directions. So inevitably their conclusions will be different. One of the clearest examples is Christianity. The premise is Jesus is the Messiah, so the Christian God ends up being different than the Jewish God. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896/180 "2013-01-31T16:01:52Z")
> [@pchaos](#): > > Again, let’s go back to the idea of a rational argument. I suppose to most scientists, rational means that you can have only one conclusion. > > I disagree. If people are starting at different premises, even if a rational argument is being made, the people will be going different directions. So inevitably their conclusions will be different. > > One of the clearest examples is Christianity. The premise is Jesus is the Messiah, so the Christian God ends up being different than the Jewish God. How about getting back to directly answering a question for a change? edited to add: Have you _ever_ considered looking up a word in a dictionary instead of “supposing” what it means? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-god-some-one-said-so/647896.md?page=10)