evidence for god? some one said so.

You are pushing this code/DNA analogy well past its breaking point. It’s a square peg in a round whole. DNA/RNA are the basic building blocks of life. All life. DNA/RNA strings are different for every form of life that we know. The human brain has developed (through much trial and error) to seek patterns in things and it makes sense that we would arrive at trying to find pattern in everything including our DNA because it’s how we are wired. It’s interesting to us for the same reason the fractal structure of a snowflake is interesting. The two patterns don’t imply intelligent creation however, merely that patterns (simple and complex) exist.

As to why we’re the only species intelligent enough (as far as we know) to have enough time on our hands to examine the universe looking for patterns?.. Well, lobsters might be asking themselves these very same question if their DNA had had the good fortune to mutate in the “right” direction a little faster than that of our prehistoric ancestors. So they may very well be sitting around picnic tables today, cracking our boiled skulls and dipping us in garlic butter, while speculating wildly about what makes them so special and smart.

That expression is used to illustrate the same problem that Quarrel calls “a loop that is logically impossible”.
“What does the earth rest on?” answer :“a giant turtle.”
“What supports the turtle?” answer: “another turtle.”
etc etc
“all the way down” is a joke ending for the ad infinitum.

I’m saying the premise is wrong; there are no turtles.

Likewise I think the first cause argument has a wrong premise. Well more actually.
That everything has a cause and it all should lead down to a single primary cause that set things in motion, that there is an absolute beginning.
Further blithely assuming that the primary cause is an intelligent creator and that “the creator” = the jewish god.

These assumptions automatically entail the question “what caused the creator”, if you stick to your first premise that everything has a cause.

If you stick to the first premise and ‘a creator’ is your answer to the primary cause, then you are stuck in the loop.

I think it would be fair to say that since copying such a large amount of data is not exact, every baby has mutations. The vast majority don’t matter, or may even map into another standard part of the genome.
As for speciation, my point was that speciation does not occur suddenly with one mutation. It occurs in an often isolated population, where the genome drifts to a point where the species in that population can interbreed but can’t with the original population. Consider dogs. While dogs today are a single species - we keep them that way - if we disappeared it would be unlikely for tiny little dogs to mate with big dogs. Before too long it would drift from unlikely but possible to totally impossible.

The stuff I mentioned was not simulating biology, but using the way evolution searches through the space of possible designs to create new things, like tests.
The path from molecule to man has lots of intermediate steps. You are kind of saying that we can’t walk from one side of town to another because there are so many steps between them. From molecules to us has lots of nice stable places also.
Here is the analogy I like. Say you have a really complicated lock, with 1,000 10 digit dials, all of which have to be set properly, in order, for the lock to open. It is clear that opening this lock by chance would take something like .5 * 10 ** 1000 settings on average, impossible. But there is one thing about this lock I didn’t tell you. Every time you set one dial correctly, there is a little click. Now opening the lock is trivial, since there are stable intermediate steps.
The example is deficient in that it assumes there is goal - the combination - while evolution has no goal.

As for the time it took, that the designer could come back (and clearly did, which is all the more reason there should be evidence) but why wait so long to push things along? Why develop the dinosaurs and then lose them? Did he have a 10 million part TV series which he watched between steps? Was he a Yahoo telecommuter? Saying that he could take that long does not say why someone wishing to design us did take that long.

The other two were irrelevant. Darwinian evolution can certainly make things that look like designs - but aren’t, because there is no designer involved. We of course did not just pop up - we are closely related to other apes, sharing 99% of our DNA with chimps, and having common ancestors. It is also clear that there have been lots of intelligent species - homo sapiens sapiens and our direct ancestors out-competed them. As for non-simian species, we were first because if someone else were first we wouldn’t be here. It is unlikely that two intelligent species would arise at pretty much the same time, and a million years is the same time in terms of evolution. If we wipe ourselves out, who knows. At the moment if intelligent animals did evolve they’d probably die of shame at being paraded on TV.

His math was wrong. His reasoning was wrong also.

As for the origin of life over billions of years, someone else, above, posted that.

Why only humans? Why not all of the other living things on earth? And all the things that once lived but are extinct today? And, perhaps more important, all of the living things that might ever have lived. Again, this was Morris’ central error: he calculated the “odds” of a giraffe’s retinal cell arising, but ignored every other possible living cell.

The premise that codes must be created by a mind is (in my opinion) demonstrably false. The minor premise, that DNA is a code, is disputable, because you are using the word differently than others. You also have used the word “meaning” and this, too, is problematic, because you are using it in a way that depends on intelligent interpretation. The information in DNA does not need intelligence to interpret it; the survival of (say) a pine tree, and its reproduction via pine-cones and seeds, is its own “interpretation.” If the process is successful, there will continue to be pine trees. That is the “meaning” of DNA.

As noted above, this is special pleading. You are allowing God to exist forever, but denying that the universe might have existed forever.

Why is it more acceptable that a structured, ordered, complex, intelligent entity has existed forever (and, fuck, didn’t he get bored existing forever without doing anything at all with his intelligence?) than that an unordered, simple, inert clump of gas came into existence at some point in time?

Why? Why is your proposition “easier” than mine? I find yours vastly more difficult to accept. It depends on so many more unexplained claims.

And, again, it’s easier to accept that that “something” was simple, inert, unorganized, and non-intelligent, rather than that “something” is complex, ordered, intelligent, and possessed of vast power and the conscious will to create.

All of your arguments about the human cell rebound against you: how many bits of information are needed to describe God? Far more than to describe the human cell! And yet you happily accept that God came about without origin, while denying the possibility that the human cell might have come about by a specific process of accumulation.

Do you, in fact, accept the age of the universe to be in the billions of years, and not the thousands? Just checking… Given that, you also have to multiply by all of the planets in all of the galaxies, upon which life might have arisen. The numbers seem entirely sufficient.

I’ve never seen a sim program that ran all of the changes over all of the billions of generations of life, from bacterium to mammals. On the other hand, mutations, as observed in the laboratory – actually observed in living cells – suggest a pace of change that easily supports the origin of mammals in the time allotted.

Why would an intelligent designer do it this way? What is so “intelligent” about retaining features from old models in later models? What is so “intelligent” about whales and snakes having hip bones, when they don’t have legs to attach to their hips? Evolution explains this easily, but intelligent design cannot answer it at all. It’s not intelligent!

No: the expression denotes a process that goes on forever, without end.

And, no, we aren’t saying that the expression is true. We’re using the expression as a satire on the notion of a process that is without a beginning.

How many Super-super-super Gods were there, who created each successive God, until we came to the God that we have today?

(For whom, by the way, no evidence is has been presented…)

Time is a difficult and sometimes useless concept. Perhaps God doesn’t really relate to “time” the way we do. Isn’t out concept of time pretty much influenced by the creation of clocks and calendars which are not time, but which measure relative time? It just doesn’t seem that way to human beings.

I know that one of the laws of physics is about everything having a cause. What if the law is wrong and has one big exception. I’ve never spent much time trying to figure this out. I think it is useless to a person of faith. But I’m still interested in the scientific implications.

(Pardon me for interrupting an interesting conversation with the obvious.)

And pardon me for interrupting an interesting supposition with the obvious: Before we speculate on the motivation of gods, we should first see if they exist in the first place. I do believe that is the purpose of this particular thread.

What if the law is wrong and has a bunch of exceptions?

I must admit that Jesus being a bit late for his return visit shows that God is not very punctual. But your response is of the “it’s a miracle” or “who knows what God does” category. The people who wrote Genesis thought God was not going to dawdle, after all. And why go through all those intermediate steps? Did he not notice the asteroid?

You know wrong. And - cite? At the quantum level, which is what we’re talking about for the Big Bang, and lot of the stuff you “know” from experience is dead wrong.

For this type of physics, if anything is obvious it is incorrect. After all, it was just as obvious that time flows at the same rate for all, right?

So far, I think it is proven that there is no evidence for a Creator or a Supreme Being, Onlly Belief, and belief is not evidence, It does show there is evidence for belief, taking the words or teachings of other humans. My question is why such an intelligent Being would not make itself known to all peole who is said was it’s children, and why the big difference of what the word God means. There are as many translations of the word as there are Human beings!

The malleable and fundamental nature of time is well understood by physicists. Their math and logic holds up whether or not God, his priests, or every third moron understands them or not.

Nor does science dictate that everything has to have a cause. That is a question of philosophy. The ultimate causes of causes and the ultimate effects of effects can only be deduced by emotion, not reason. Every answer leads to another question, and it is only those who can’t stand any more asking that choose a final answer.

It’s already been mentioned, but it’s NOT a law of physics that everything has to have a cause. And the universe we observe does have events which have no cause. It goes against what people assumed was true for a long time, but the universe doesn’t care about our preferences.

Radioactive decay of unstable elements seems to be an example: they decay randomly. They simply sit there, untouched, and either now…or later…they pop. There is no cause, no precipitating event.

It is also deficient in assuming the digit remains fixed after the click is heard. After the small step that results in some species, there is nothing that prevents the random mutation from “undoing” a change that occurred before. That is why I said it doesn’t matter what species existed along the way, and you need to get everything to line up.

The other two are every-day uses of the word evolution, which everyone can plainly see. He was using two concepts: mutation and selection. Within there, two types (deliberate or random mutation, and deliberate or natural selection). Then lists out 3 combinations of these (he left out deliberate mutation with deliberate selection). And then pointed out the combination of random mutation and natural selection is Darwinism, and nothing else.

I don’t think science even knows enough. Could a unicorn exist? In other words, if science knew enough about DNA, could they construct a unicorn? I don’t think science even knows if it is possible. So how could you enumerate all the valid possible encodings of DNA and the physically possible (meaning can construct the DNA ‘strings’ without knowing if it would produce a viable creature)? These two numbers divided would give the odds of some random piece of DNA being a viable creature. Does science have any idea the magnitude of either of these numbers? Has science tried to make a new creature? If this was so likely to happen randomly by a slow process, a lab should be able to do a fast process.

And I think that is the meaning I’ve been saying. The bits in your computer mean something to the computer, even if you don’t understand them. I don’t know how you can argue that DNA is not a code. In MedlinePlus: Genetics, it says “The information in DNA is stored as a code made up of four chemical bases.” If you think I have a different meaning for the word “code” please explain.

How do you demonstrate that “codes must be created by a mind” is false?

You are thinking more in terms of the universe (the creation). God is not part of the creation, so is also not part of time. “What created God” is a valid question, but I can accept that something we can’t grasp could exist forever. But how can matter pop up out of nothing? But science today says the universe didn’t exist forever, so you can’t fault me on that.

I’ve noticed the age of the universe has been changing (I stumbled on something that indicates it was around 17 billion not too long ago). So it could change again. Maybe it’s millions. I’ll say I’m “agnostic” on this point. I doubt science now has the true number. It might be billions for the universe, but I don’t believe humans have existed for 100,000 years.

Has there been another planet discovered that could support life? Seems like a lot of things came together just right for the planet also. You probably have to use up your “all of the planets in all of the galaxies” just to get our planet that is just right to support life.

So, there has to be a first cause. If that isn’t God, what is it?

The cause is whatever makes them radioactive.

Undoing is unlikely for two reasons. First, the exact mutation would have to be reversed, which won’t happen often. Second, and most importantly, undoing the change would have to lead to reproductive success. If it does, how would the change have propagated in the first place.
Now of course the diversity in the genome shows that non-crucial changes can co-exist, so we have lots of different eye colors. A blue to brown to blue flip won’t matter, and won’t be seen. A mutation that removes eyesight won’t be advantageous - unless you are living in cage.
I don’t understand what you mean about things lining up. If a species splits, and then splits again, some branches might die out (sorry, will die out) and even if for some odd reason some branches reverted to original stock those which split further would keep on evolving. But you are correct it is another weakness in my analogy - in the actual case twiddling with numbers previously chosen won’t affect opening the lock if you do it in order. You can even chop off the older dials and keep going on.

Which I agreed with. His #1 is more or less we do when we twiddle with genes and select the ones which work. It is fairly new, but I think it counts as design.
Number 2 is how humanity has bred new plants and animals for thousands of years. Darwin both did it himself and studied farmers doing it, and the Origin has a lot on this. Clearly Darwin seeing how breeders did it inspired him to think about how nature could do it. Intelligent design is not impossible - there is no evidence that it ever happened except when humans did it.
Heck, I raise guide dogs, and have a retired breeder. She got chosen as a breeder, and was reproductively successful, after a process of unnatural selection, and she was the result of such a process going back many generations. All dogs are. If we saw something in the fossil record as clearly unable to survive in the wild as a cow, we’d have some evidence it happened.

So, choices 1 and 2 I have no problem with - they are instances of design. 3 is not.

This does not justify Henry Morris basing his calculations on only one – one, count 'em (1) – possible form of life.

In the meantime, surely I can point to several trillion possible individual living things – from the trillions of human (and other animal) sperm that never merge with an egg.

The point is that artificially restricting the numerator is one way to make a fraction smaller than it actually is in reality, and Morris did this, in extremis.

I can envision “codes” that do not require intelligent interpretation. The periodic table of the elements is a code, but does not require intelligence. The Hertzsprung-Russell diagram is a code, and, likewise, does not require intelligence.

By mentioning at least two that aren’t.

Isaac Asimov treated this in his wonderful essay “The Relativity of Wrong.” The refinements in the age of the universe have been approaching a value, almost asymptotically. The idea of it suddenly making a grotesque and catastrophic leap over five or more orders of magnitude is preposterous.

The measurement size of the earth has been changing over the centuries; do you suppose that, some day, we’ll suddenly discover it’s only 10 miles across? Your notion is of the same order of magnitude.

And the fossil record suggests that humans (and immediate predecessors) have existed for 100,000 years. You need to take it up with the paleontologists. Your beliefs (and mine!) are of no relevance; the evidence is all that matters.

There are quite a few who are arguing that more than one of Jupiter’s and Saturn’s moons could support life. A number of planets revolving around distant stars have been identified which are inside the “liquid water” zone of their star. Given the vast number of stars to examine, why does it seem unlikely to you that there may be others?

If, by God, you mean “an event that precedes any other observed event,” that works, but it’s misleading, because a big burp of gas is hardly “Godlike.” When you use the word “God” you bring in a whole lot of additional connotative baggage. Why does the first cause have to be intelligent? Why couldn’t it simply be a dumb, mechanistic, natural event? You’re multiplying premises without evidence.

Incorrect: you have two Uranium atoms sitting on your desk, in exactly the same environment of temperature, pressure, ambient light, etc. One of them decays two minutes from now, and the other decays five thousand years from now. What “caused” one to pop, and the other not to pop? The best evidence at this point is that it happens randomly. There is no “cause” for a random event. That’s pretty much the definition of the term.

(What “caused” a 17-Red to pop up on a roulettte wheel?)

(Trick question: 17 is actually Black in roulette…) :wink:

Did you read the article I linked to in post 779? If so, what do you think was wrong with it?

In fact doesn’t he have the cause and effect reversed? It’s not their radioactivity that causes the decay, it’s their decay that releases the various particles/waves that we call radioactivity.

Exactly! The origin of Uranium in supernovas (fascinating!) is an example of a “cause.” A supernova goes ka-whoom (technical term there) :wink: and U atoms are forged in the midst of all that heat and pressure. Cause/effect.

And when U atoms themselves decay, this causes heat, energy, beta particles, and the resultant nuclides. (A cool word I only just found looking the matter up.) There, too, is a clear-cut cause-and-effect relationship.

What what causes the U atom to pop? Nothing! It’s naturally unstable, and, at a time that no-one (but God?) can predict, it decays.

(I have a friend who whole-heartedly believes in the “hidden variables” idea, but I can’t see how this could work. A Uranium atom, in order to decay at a time specified by these hidden variables, would have to be so very, very complex as to beggar the imagination. The variables would constitute a “cuckoo clock” ticking slowly along, so that when it reaches the right moment, the atom decays. The “clock” would have to have millions of little internal parts, in order to count time in microseconds, and yet have the ability to decay in seconds…or in years. The internal structure of the clock would have to contain – and process! – huge amounts of information. Randomness is philosophically ugly – Einstein hated it – but the “internal clock” model introduces vast calculational complexities with no evidence to justify it.)

(However, fair being fair, if there really are “hidden variables” that determine when the atom decays, well, yes, that would definitely be a"cause.")

This happens all the time.

It means that locally the Taliban in the area over-stepped the mark and upset the local power holders. Which is good. But it does no good if the kleptocrats in Kabul cannot or will not step in to provide justice and security. Handing the place over to one of their looter allies and the kiddie raping, bandit-police force doesn’t win hearts and minds.

And on the other side of the coin is this.

Afghans hold anti US rally

If there was a proper, respected, functioning Afghan government this might all be positive. But there isn’t.

Afghan government could collapse

Not to mention the impending economic collapse when we withdraw and the trough the kleptocrats are wallowing in dries up.

The Taliban will proably be back and quite probably with our under-the-table blessing in return for them kicking out foreign jihadi’s. In the end we don’t care who rules Afghanistan and we don’t care what happens to the people. We only care about Al-Q and its franchises getting a foothold.

Was that post meant to be in another forum?