# Evidence for the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587 "2007-10-05T02:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/21 "2007-10-05T14:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=land185] The accuracy of biblical prophecy is amazing. Take a look for yourself at all the prophecies that were fulfilled. How could it be by chance? [http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/) “I am the way, the truth and the life: no one can come to the Father but by me.” (John 14:6) [/QUOTE] Why don’t you list a few prophecies of future events for us? It isn’t all that hard to find some words in the bible that can be viewed as an allegorical reference to an event that has already happened. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/22 "2007-10-05T14:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=land185] Ok, the Book of Micah was written around 700 BC and Micah 5:2 says But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Then about 700 years later, Jesus was born in Bethlehem Here is an interesting one [http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/ezekiel\_4\_3.htm](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/ezekiel_4_3.htm) Also, Genesis 28 :14 says God will bless the world through Jacob’s seed. It is interesting to note that the Jews are only 1% of the population of the world yet they hold 23% of Nobel Prize awards. [Jewish Nobel Prize Winners](http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html) Also, the Bible predicted that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed, the Jews would be exiled, Israel would become a wasteland, the Jews would be scattered, persecuted, preserved, return to their homeland, reside with their enemies and that Israel would one day be restored (1948). [http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htm](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htm) Psalms 22:16 speaks of someone whose hands and feet are pierced Here are some about the Messiah. [Bible prophecies: Messianic prophecies](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/messianic.htm) [/QUOTE] If a prophecy comes from an Almighty who can see and shape the future, here is what it looks like: _“On the day which will be known as May 14, 1948, a man named David Ben Gurion will read a Declaration of Independence to establish a State of Israel that will take its place among the Nations of the World.”_ If a prophecy comes from a non-specific “sage” hoping to impress the polloi, here is what it looks like: _“Someday the Jews will return to their homeland.”_ Notice the difference? It’s called wiggleroom and it’s what separates thinking people from nitwits in terms of how amazed they are with “accuracy.” Not to mention the structure of Biblical prophecies. Your cites are scattered snippets taken from the middle of long rants and applied post-event to show in retrospect how they fit. Any decent real prophetic book would have the list of detailed specific events and fulfillment dates in a chapter called “These are the Biblical prophecies.” ETA: Jesus was never Ruler in Israel so I am underwhelmed by your Micah reference. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/23 "2007-10-05T14:33:40Z")
How do you explain the manifest contradictions in the bible? For example, Matthew 1:6-7 traces Jesus’ lineage through David’s son Solomon, whereas Luke chapter 23 traces it through David’s son Nathan. Plus, the two lineages have a different number of generations. If the Bible is supposed to be the word of God, how do you explain things like that? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/24 "2007-10-05T14:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Also, cite on the Bible condoning pagan rituals and incest since the Mosaic Law was written (the condoning of sibling mating from Adam to Abraham is debatable)? [/QUOTE] [Genesis 19:31-36:](http://www.bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=19) > [@](#): > > _The older girl said to the younger, ‘Our father is growing old, and there is no other man left in the world to marry us in a normal manner. > Come, let’s get our father drunk with wine, and sleep with him. We will then survive through children from our father.’ > That night, they got their father drunk with wine, and the older girl went and slept with her father. He was not aware that she had lain down or gotten up. > The next day, the older girl said to the younger, ‘Last night it was I who slept with my father. Tonight, let’s get him drunk with wine again. You go sleep with him, and we will survive through children from our father.’ > That night, they again made their father drunk with wine. The younger girl got up and she slept with him. He was not aware that she had lain down or gotten up. > Lot’s two daughters became pregnant from their father._ Christmas (while not specifically biblical) was taken from the [pagan holiday of Saturnalia.](http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html) Easter was originally a fertility rite celebrating the spring equinox. (How come Easter changes from year to year, if Jesus was crucified & supposedly resurrected on a specific day?) ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/25 "2007-10-05T14:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Cite on Paul’s racism (the homophobia & misogyny are matters of opinion, but you have no basis to charge him with racism)? [/QUOTE] [Titus 1:12-13](http://www.newadvent.org/bible/tit001.htm) – > [@](#): > > \*One of them a prophet of their own, said: The Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, slothful bellies. This testimony is true. Wherefore, rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith. \* [emphasis mine] ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/26 "2007-10-05T14:47:30Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] [Titus 1:12-13](http://www.newadvent.org/bible/tit001.htm) – [/QUOTE] Racist if you don’t see the irony in there :rolleyes: ’ the anti-JC folk who charge Him with racism for referring to the Canaanite woman and her demonized daughter as dogs have a better case. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/27 "2007-10-05T14:49:49Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] [Genesis 19:31-36:](http://www.bible.ort.org/books/pentd2.asp?ACTION=displaypage&BOOK=1&CHAPTER=19) Christmas (while not specifically biblical) was taken from the [pagan holiday of Saturnalia.](http://www.ccg.org/english/s/p235.html) Easter was originally a fertility rite celebrating the spring equinox. (How come Easter changes from year to year, if Jesus was crucified & supposedly resurrected on a specific day?) [/QUOTE] Incest isn’t condoned; it’s just described. The festivals of Christmas and Easter (and it’s odd dating) were developed centuries after the NT was written. This is just sad. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/28 "2007-10-05T15:01:21Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Incest isn’t condoned; it’s just described. [/QUOTE] Then why didn’t God punish Lot’s daughters for committing incest? Or is that not so bad a crime as [Ham seeing is father drunk & naked?](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:20-27) God seems awfully capricious when it comes to handing out punishment. [Maybe he really does have bipolar disorder.](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28484) ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/29 "2007-10-05T15:13:28Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] Then why didn’t God punish Lot’s daughters for committing incest? Or is that not so bad a crime as [Ham seeing is father drunk & naked?](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+9:20-27) God seems awfully capricious when it comes to handing out punishment. [Maybe he really does have bipolar disorder.](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28484) [/QUOTE] God just nuked two cities full of gang-rapists & other degenerates; He was mellowed out. The two girls were traumatized and kinda desperate about keeping the family going. God was feeling charitable. Ham’s offense wasn’t seeing Noah drunk & naked but in gossiping about him. There are interpretations ranging from Ham disgracing Noah so as to grab his patriarchal authority for himself (the most likely one IMO), to Ham sodomizing Noah, to Ham forcing himself on Noah’s wife (his step-mom). ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/30 "2007-10-05T15:27:43Z")
Speaking of Lot: How righteous is it to offer your virgin daughters for rape? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/31 "2007-10-05T15:32:22Z")
[QUOTE=land185] Ok, the Book of Micah was written around 700 BC and Micah 5:2 says But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. Then about 700 years later, Jesus was born in Bethlehem [/quote] Bethlehem was the birthplace of David and therefore the presumptive birthplace of the Messiah (David’s heir). There are two major problems with trying to claim Jesus as a fulfillment of this prophecy. One is that he was never a ruler in Israel. Two is that it’s highly unlikely he was born in Bethlehem. There is no real evidence for it. John and Mark didn’t think he was born in Bethlehem. Neither did Paul. Matthew and Luke both placed the birth in bethlehem to force it o fit expectations but both were forced to invent (wildly contradictory) fictional narratives to get him there and their births are set ten years apart. Even if it could be proven that Jesus was born in Bethlehem (which it can’t), the fact that he was never a ruler in Israel makes this a non-starter. > [@](#): > > Here is an interesting one [http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/ezekiel\_4\_3.htm](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/ezekiel_4_3.htm) I said I don’t want to debate links, but I will just say that the author you link to invents a fictional 360 day ancient Jewish calendar to make his convoluted math work out for him. There was never any such calendar. That’s not the only fact-challenged claim on the page but it’s probably the most glaring. > [@](#): > > Also, Genesis 28 :14 says God will bless the world through Jacob’s seed. It is interesting to note that the Jews are only 1% of the population of the world yet they hold 23% of Nobel Prize awards. [Jewish Nobel Prize Winners](http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html) Lame. > [@](#): > > Also, the Bible predicted that Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed, the Jews would be exiled, Israel would become a wasteland, the Jews would be scattered, persecuted, preserved, return to their homeland, reside with their enemies and that Israel would one day be restored (1948). [http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htm](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htm) Israel was always getting invaded and razed and scattered in ancient times. Predicting that was like predicting it would rain. A lot of those prophecies were also written after the fact. > [@](#): > > Psalms 22:16 speaks of someone whose hands and feet are pierced It doesn’t say “pierced.” That’s a mistranslation from the Hebrew. It’s also not about the Messiah. > [@](#): > > Here are some about the Messiah. [Bible prophecies: Messianic prophecies](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/messianic.htm) Please don’t try to debate with nothing but links. Say it yourself, in your own words. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/32 "2007-10-05T15:32:51Z")
[QUOTE=land185] The accuracy of biblical prophecy is amazing. Take a look for yourself at all the prophecies that were fulfilled. How could it be by chance? [http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/](http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/) [/QUOTE] I looked at the first one on the website: "In Genesis 15:5, the Bible said that Abraham would have many descendants and that counting them would be like counting the stars. The fulfillment of this prophecy is obvious. In fact it is so obvious that it can be easily overlooked: Abraham is the only person revered by large numbers of people throughout world as being their ancestor. He is the father of the Jewish people, as explained in the book of Genesis, through his son Isaac, and through Isaac’s son Israel. Christians become descendants of Abraham through faith (Galatians 3:29), just as Abraham became the father of many nations through faith (Genesis chapters 12-17; Romans 4:18)." 1. There are more stars than descendants. We also don’t count people using radio telescopes. 2. Adam is revered by large numbers of people throughout world as being their ancestor. 3. Sharing a faith does \*\*not \*\* make you a descendant. It would have been trivially easy for God to come up with a true prophecy. “You shall discover that the ratio of a circle begins 3.14159 and defining its accuracy continues forever.” “The Nation of Israel shall be formed shortly after the second global war.” “I have left a black obelisk on the Moon, which shall be discovered nearly 2000 years after my Son is crucified.” But He couldn’t manage any of that. Please rely on your faith for your religious belief. There is no scientific evidence of God, and your ‘predictions’ are a sign of desperation. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/33 "2007-10-05T15:33:29Z")
[QUOTE=land185] Ok, the Book of Micah was written around 700 BC and Micah 5:2 says But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting. [/QUOTE] Big deal. My Counter of Formica was laid in 1998 and except for that one place where I accidentally left part of a cut beet for too long, it’s proved to be pretty everlasting too. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/34 "2007-10-05T15:45:09Z")
[QUOTE=Annie-Xmas] Speaking of Lot: How righteous is it to offer your virgin daughters for rape? [/QUOTE] It’s pretty damned wretched, which shows by contrast how depraved the Sodom-folk were as he was the most righteous one in the bunch. However, we don’t know how serious he was in the offer or how much he was trying to buy time. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/35 "2007-10-05T15:47:02Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] It’s pretty damned wretched, which shows by contrast how depraved the Sodom-folk were as he was the most righteous one in the bunch. However, we don’t know how serious he was in the offer or how much he was trying to buy time. [/QUOTE] What had the daughters done? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/36 "2007-10-05T15:50:56Z")
[QUOTE=KGS] [Titus 1:12-13](http://www.newadvent.org/bible/tit001.htm) – [/QUOTE] Have you ever MET a Cretan? Maybe they ARE “always liars, evil beasts, slothful bellies,” and any one that isn’t is no true Cretan. **land185** , you aren’t even impressing the Christians here. If you can’t “preach to the choir” successfully, maybe you should consider another method of demonstrating your love of God. Deliver lunch to shut-ins. Volunteer at a homeless shelter. Write letters to prisoners. Y’know, the whole feed the hungry, clothe the naked, comfort the afflicted stuff Jesus TOLD you to do. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/37 "2007-10-05T15:54:24Z")
I’m pretty sure Jesus said “spread the word” too, to be fair. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/38 "2007-10-05T16:07:36Z")
Wait, isn’t that “Cretans” passage in the Bible simply an allusion to the famous Greek “All Cretans are liars” logic puzzle? ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/39 "2007-10-05T16:07:58Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] What had the daughters done? [/QUOTE] To rephrase it, “as he was among the most righteous people in the city along with his daughters”. That better? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/40 "2007-10-05T16:08:44Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] I’m pretty sure Jesus said “spread the word” too, to be fair. [/QUOTE] Well, our guest has blown that one STRAIGHT to Hell. I suggested some options that he may be more qualified for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587.md?page=3)