# Evidence for the Bible **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587 "2007-10-05T02:46:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/41 "2007-10-05T16:09:52Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] What had the daughters done? [/QUOTE] Coveted the paternal weiner. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/42 "2007-10-05T16:10:01Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] To rephrase it, “as he was among the most righteous people in the city along with his daughters”. That better? [/QUOTE] Yup. Sorry, I don’t mean to be nitpicky - it was an honest question and I don’t know the Bible like you do. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/43 "2007-10-05T16:11:27Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] W **ell, our guest has blown that one STRAIGHT to Hell.** I suggested some options that he may be more qualified for. [/QUOTE] **bolding mine** How so? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/44 "2007-10-05T16:13:18Z")
[QUOTE=Lemur866] Wait, isn’t that “Cretans” passage in the Bible simply an allusion to the famous Greek “All Cretans are liars” logic puzzle? [/QUOTE] Nope. Completely separate and no scribe messed it up when copying Paul’s letter to Titus. And it’s further support for my suggestion that you can’t trust a Cretan as far as you can throw him. There isn’t anybody from Crete here, is there? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/45 "2007-10-05T16:18:50Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Ham’s offense wasn’t seeing Noah drunk & naked but in gossiping about him. There are interpretations ranging from Ham disgracing Noah so as to grab his patriarchal authority for himself (the most likely one IMO), to Ham sodomizing Noah, to Ham forcing himself on Noah’s wife (his step-mom). [/QUOTE] So… just make up the worst sounding shit one can to keep God looking like the good guy? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/46 "2007-10-05T16:26:51Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] How so? [/QUOTE] Well, it depends on your definition of “spreading,” I suppose. I assume Jesus meant he wanted his followers to not just cast the seeds on rocks, and I also assume he was against them wasting their time casting seeds on soil where there is plenty of wheat already growing. This place is not fertile soil for **land185** ’s style of evangelizing, where there is mostly rocks and wheat and what open fertile soil left is only watered by indifference. I can beat a metaphor until it’s begging for mercy. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/47 "2007-10-05T16:29:44Z")
[QUOTE=FordPrefect] So… just make up the worst sounding shit one can to keep God looking like the good guy? [/QUOTE] And do it by completely ditching the very plain words in the Bible. I mean, the meaning of that section wasn’t the slightest bit in question until people tried to make God look good. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/48 "2007-10-05T16:32:06Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Ham’s offense wasn’t seeing Noah drunk & naked but in gossiping about him. There are interpretations ranging from Ham disgracing Noah so as to grab his patriarchal authority for himself (the most likely one IMO), to Ham sodomizing Noah, to Ham forcing himself on Noah’s wife (his step-mom). [/QUOTE] This was the subject of a [two](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdrunknoah.html)-[part](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mdrunknoah2.html) Staff Report! ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/49 "2007-10-05T16:44:22Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Well, it depends on your definition of “spreading,” I suppose. I assume Jesus meant he wanted his followers to not just cast the seeds on rocks, and I also assume he was against them wasting their time casting seeds on soil where there is plenty of wheat already growing. This place is not fertile soil for **land185** ’s style of evangelizing, where there is mostly rocks and wheat and what open fertile soil left is only watered by indifference. I can beat a metaphor until it’s begging for mercy. [/QUOTE] Actually, the field Jesus himself tilled, while fertile for his message, got him killed, right? Further, virtually all his disciples met resistance and suffered beatings, mob action, and jailings etc. Jesus himself forewarned his followers that they would meet with resistance. (including being “delivered up” by family members, death etc) He did say that if someone was unreceptive to his message they should “shake the dust off their feet” and move on. **(Matt 10:14)** Nonetheless\*\* land185\*\* is doing exactly what Jesus _commanded_ his followers to do. The fact that this particular environment is hostile, or whether an internet message board is an effective (or appropriate) venue for witnessing, or whether \*\* land185\*\*'s skills are suited for this type of witnessing, is all irrelevent to the command to witness. Whatever issues I [we] have with his methodology, skills, knowledge or experience I _applaud_ him for acting on his convictions. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/50 "2007-10-05T16:52:37Z")
[QUOTE=FordPrefect] So… just make up the worst sounding shit one can to keep God looking like the good guy? [/QUOTE] … ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/51 "2007-10-05T17:27:40Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] Whatever issues I [we] have with his methodology, skills, knowledge or experience I _applaud_ him for acting on his convictions. [/QUOTE] Far be it from me to not applaud his gallantry. I’m a sucker for underdogs. I was merely suggesting there were ways he might make more impact. Christians LOVE their martyrs, but even Jesus might see that it isn’t always the best way to gain followers; his own execution having been more of a sacrifice. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2007, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/52 "2007-10-05T20:01:14Z")
[QUOTE=dropzone] Far be it from me to not applaud his gallantry. I’m a sucker for underdogs. I was merely suggesting there were ways he might make more impact. Christians LOVE their martyrs, but even Jesus might see that it isn’t always the best way to gain followers; his own execution having been more of a sacrifice. [/QUOTE] Point well taken. ---
**Author:** ![FordPrefect](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e99b99/32.png) [@FordPrefect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FordPrefect)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/53 "2007-10-06T05:34:50Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] … [/QUOTE] I am not sure what … means, but fwiw, I wasn’t accusing you of making up shit, but that those that interpreted the very short passage to mean many possible variants as possibly making up shit. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/54 "2007-10-06T11:20:25Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] This does not prove anything about Jesus. There is a quote in the Bible when Jesus was on the cross and it states Jesus garments were being fought over so that prophecy would be fullfilled.Same with" they have pierced my hands and feet they have numbered all my bones" This could well be that they did all they could to make it look like Prophecy would be fullfilled as the Gospel of Judus suggests. Since Jesus is quoted as saying that that generation would not pass away until all things had been accomplished,if the stars were to fall etc. for the end of the world than there would be no meek to inherit the earth as the earth itself would be destroyed. The church then decided that Jesus didn’t mean that generation. Monavis [/QUOTE] I suggest you read Matthew chapte 24 verses 23 t0 31 and Mark ch 8 verse 38 and 39. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/55 "2007-10-06T11:25:35Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Jesus never predicted the end of the earth; he predicted the end of the aion/age (badly translated in the KJV as “world”). The Old Covenant Priestly-Sacrificial-Temple Age ended in 70 A.D., right on time. Jesus did indeed mean THAT generation. [/QUOTE] I suggest you read Matthew 8 Verses 38 and 39. also Matthew chapter 24, verses 23-31. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/56 "2007-10-06T13:51:23Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] I suggest you read Matthew chapte 24 verses 23 t0 31 and Mark ch 8 verse 38 and 39. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=monavis] I suggest you read Matthew 8 Verses 38 and 39. also Matthew chapter 24, verses 23-31. [/QUOTE] **Matthew 24:23-31** is all about false prophets & such plus some trippy apocalyptic nonsense about the end of the world. If I were to take Jesus’ word on faith, that would mean I should not believe ANYBODY who claims to be Jesus or claims to know who Jesus is. It’s sort of like he’s denying his own divinity and his own existence. (Kinda freaky how that passage is underlined in my Bible…they must teach that ch/verse in Sunday School class!) **Matthew 8:38-39** …does not exist. Neither does Mark. :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/57 "2007-10-06T14:09:12Z")
Well, there is a Mark 8:38]([Mk 8:38; KJV - Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of - Bible Gateway](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mk%208:38;&version=9;)) (although I have no idea what Mark 8:39 was supposed to say). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/58 "2007-10-06T15:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=FordPrefect] I am not sure what … means, but fwiw, I wasn’t accusing you of making up shit, but that those that interpreted the very short passage to mean many possible variants as possibly making up shit. [/QUOTE] Sorry- I had originally posted saying that we needed one of our Jewish dopers to give a take on the curse of Ham story- then I saw that Thudlow had linked to the SD report, so I deleted the post, but I had to type it something to show I’d deleted it because of Thudlow’s post. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/59 "2007-10-06T15:20:04Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] I suggest you read Matthew 8 Verses 38 and 39. also Matthew chapter 24, verses 23-31. Monavis [/QUOTE] I’ve read it more times that you can imagine. I suggest you read the works of David Chilton on the Net to see what “stars falling”, etc. means in Hebraic prophetic imagery. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2007, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587/60 "2007-10-06T18:34:38Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Cite on Paul’s racism (the homophobia & misogyny are matters of opinion, but you have no basis to charge him with racism)?[ [/quotE] I’m not familiar enough to offer chapter and verse, but Paul’s comments about the Jews would pretty much be classified as racist by any reasonable standard… not to mention, the cause of 2000 years (and ongoing) persecution and intolerance in the name of “Christianity.” On biblical prophecy, from the Staff Report [Who wrote the Bible? Part 3](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible3.html): > [@](#): > > The prophets arose mostly at times of crisis in Israel. Each prophet’s primary message was directed to the people of his own day, calling on them to turn from wickedness and return to the faith. The prophets were reformers, religious teachers, and political advisors. They held up the ideals of moral duty, adherence to religious truth, and national renewal. Notwithstanding our modern notion of a prophet as someone who foretells the future, long-term predictions were not the primary concern, although sometimes messages about the Messianic Era were important. > > Nonetheless, the fact that the prophets sometimes did make oracular pronouncements sharpens the disagreement between tradition and scholarship in matters of dating. As we mentioned earlier, if a prophet says, “the walls are fallen,” and we know the walls fell in year X, then scholars tend to date the prophet’s words after the year X. On the other hand, if this was prophecy, then traditionalists have no problem in dating the passage before the year X. I see that someone has already given the link to my Staff Reports on drunken Noah and the curse on Ham. P’raps it’s time for a Staff Report on Lot’s daughters. Traditional interpretation is that the sins of Sodom included lack of hospitality, and aggressiveness/threats to strangers. For that time and desert region, being hospitable to travelers was considered a necessity. Mistreating travelers was pretty much condemning them to death in the desert. Hence, offering marriagable daughters to the crowd (remember that whoever raped them could still marry them) was considered less immoral than murdering strangers who were travelling by. Since it’s Saturday, you’ll probably not be getting much commentary from very traditionalist Jews today… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-for-the-bible/421587.md?page=4)