# Evidence of a Global Flood? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 12, 2006, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425 "2006-09-12T16:07:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/101 "2006-09-13T00:10:41Z")
> [@Interest](#): > > Yes a flood could do that and it can be easily explained in terms of buoyancy. > [Buoyancy - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buoyancy) > > “Magic” = Bouyancy Of course bouyancy is magic! It shows how a universal flood is a bunch of hoey: To start, not all trilobites were of the same size: [http://www.zeesminerals.com/inventory/fossils/fossils\_trilobites\_130\_1.jpg](http://www.zeesminerals.com/inventory/fossils/fossils_trilobites_130_1.jpg) [http://www.zeesminerals.com/large\_fossils\_3.htm](http://www.zeesminerals.com/large_fossils_3.htm) [http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Extension/fossils/trilobite.html](http://www.kgs.ku.edu/Extension/fossils/trilobite.html) I would expect the football size trilobites to appear much higher in the fossil record or to appear more often next to the wolves, BTW I could not find a cite that mentioned where those mixed fossils were found, if there was a flood it is clear that trilobites just decided to ignore buoyancy… Nah, more likely they just ended as fossils millions of years before dinosaurs or wolves appeared. Here is another item that shows how magic buoyancy is by disposing of the universal flood, from **Colibri** ’s link: > **[Problems with a Global Flood, 2nd edition](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html)** > > A list of questions which the story of Noah's Ark and a global flood leave unanswered and probably unanswerable, such as: How did all the fish survive? and, When did granite batholiths form? > [@](#): > > Why is there no evidence of a flood in ice core series? Ice cores from Greenland have been dated back more than 40,000 years by counting annual layers. [Johnsen et al, 1992,; Alley et al, 1993] A worldwide flood would be expected to leave a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios, fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, a hiatus in trapped air bubbles, and probably other evidence. Why doesn’t such evidence show up? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/102 "2006-09-13T00:30:16Z")
> [@Interest](#): > > What do you think of this article?: > [Creation, Mutation, and Variation | The Institute for Creation Research](http://icr.org/article/171/) Notice they don’t support your bogus argument of Adam and Eve having extra genetic material. Of course they don’t discuss cases where the variations we see cannot emerge directly from one breeding pair. The genetic load argument is a load. First of all, how do they know that the first hemoglobin variation was the best? Doesn’t it make as much sense that the first was not better than what is dominant now, and the current dominant (in the sense of most widely spread, not the genetic sense) spread through the population from being superior? Evolution never claims that a population will lose all genetic diversity. That would be unfavorable, since diversity, even if not optimal in a current environment, might become superior in a new environment. Also, mutations may occur in unexpressed genes, which might get turned on at some later date. Of course mutations happen to existing genetic material. No one claims otherwise. Fruit fly experiments show that small mutations can have big impacts to body structure, though. Note how they’re avoiding the claim that all mutations are harmful - I guess even ICR can’t support that anymore. That is my quick untrained view. Someone who actually knows this stuff can probably find all sorts of additional flaws and quote mining. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/103 "2006-09-13T00:45:02Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Sez you. Again, it wasn’t my part of the project, but I’ve seen the specs. Gopher wood is a mistranslation; it was actually a super-secret metal alloy not replicated until the late 1930s, and even then under such hush-hush conditions that only a small disc was fabricated. > Please read my posts more carefully. The fairies were only involved in animal husbadnry. Materiel and construction were handled by [these guys](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarves#Tolkien.27s_dwarves) Attention [LEP-Recon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEPrecon) (LEPrecon is the reconnaissance division of the Lower Elements Police) - Missed a mind-wipe over here. **Skald** , we’ve gone over this before, you’re not supposed to be blabbing. The mud-men can’t know what’s really going on. You place all fairy at risk! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/104 "2006-09-13T01:13:02Z")
Forget bounacy: in real floods, victims are often buried under debris and silt and don’t even float, and they are buried at different times depending on whether they can get to higher ground in time. Creationists would have us believe that not a single dino made it to a mountaintop: not a single human was too sick or lame and got buried early. Not a single trilobyte managed to swim to the top and stay there until the end. That, kids, is crazy stuff. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/105 "2006-09-13T01:13:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, based on the Biblical account of Creation, Adam and Eve had to have a super diverse human genetic material. They had enough genes to produce the human population at the time of Noah’s flood. Noah, his wife, and his sons and their wives would have still had this super supply of genes. As the only problem of human reproduction is the shrinking of the gene pool, you are supporting that humans genes started somewhere with a lot of genes, and we continually lose genes. Where, in either theory, evolution or creation, have you seen the ADDITION of genes? So, let me get this straight: Adam and Eve had every possible gene that exists today? And these genes have been kind of dwindling ever since? 😕 The addition of genes happens all the time. It’s called mutation. Most mutations are harmful. Some are neutral. A very few are beneficial to the individual. If you doubt it, think about how bacteria, all the time, somehow develop immunity to antibiotics. Somewhere, some time, a single bacterium changed so that it had slightly more resistance to penicillin. It made not the slightest difference until humans started trying to kill off the bacteria. The few that were slightly more resistant survived longer and went on to breed more of their kind. Lather, rinse, repeat. Today there is an increasing problem with bacteria that are resistant not only to penicillin but to almost every known antibiotic. Chromosomes join and merge, too. It’s pretty well accepted that chimps have one more chromosome than humans. The [Chimp Genome Project](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee_Genome_Project) found that: > [@](#): > > Human and common chimpanzee chromosomes are very similar. The primary difference is that humans have one fewer pair of chromosomes than do other great apes. In the human evolutionary lineage, two ancestral ape chromosomes fused at their telomeres producing human chromosome two. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/106 "2006-09-13T01:52:27Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#): > > Attention [LEP-Recon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LEPrecon) (LEPrecon is the reconnaissance division of the Lower Elements Police) - Missed a mind-wipe over here. > > **Skald** , we’ve gone over this before, you’re not supposed to be blabbing. The mud-men can’t know what’s really going on. You place all fairy at risk! 😕 You must have missed the “\*\*Skald the Rhymer \*\* is now evil” memo. Radagast the Brown must be swiping paper from your inbox again. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/107 "2006-09-13T02:26:09Z")
Oh…is this thread still going on? Sorry, I’m easily distracted… 😛 > [@Interest](#): > > I am open to anything you’ve got, if you are open to anything I have. Um…were you open to reading the links I took the trouble to hunt up for you (I had this feeling I was wasting my time there)? I read YOUR links, though admittedly I only skimmed them, having seen them before. > [@Interest](#): > > Where exactly is the problem in that? I don’t see it impossible. For context, this is what I had said: > [@XT...a.k.a. a fool for getting himself into another of these pointless discussions](#): > > No, I haven’t forgotten it. But, you see, if we go by the Noah account we get a whole NEW crop of problems. For instance, lets say that Noah did in fact manage to somehow get all those plants, animals, etc onto a big boat…and somehow have the logistics to keep them all alive for as long as the flood event (and its after math) transpired. Impossible, but lets wave that away for a bit. Specific things impossible, ehe? Do you know anything about logistics? Running a zoo? You see, there are a lot more species than were known when the bible was written. Even caring for just 2 of every animal (and of course, this isn’t actually accurate, as some animals there were I believe 5 or 7 of) would be a monster task for hundreds of people…let alone just a handful. Also, we get into the special dietary needs of some animals. Take kuala bears for instance. It is essential that they eat eucalyptis leaves. LOTS of it in fact. So, Noah et al would have needed to stock quite a supply of it for them. No problem, right? Except Noah et al would have needed to do this for a LOT of animals. Some carnivores need meat in their diets, especially for weeks or months…or they die. Meat doesn’t stay fresh, so you would need to bring MORE animals to provide food for them (and thus you’d need even more fodder). Some animals have very specialized diets of things that are only available in their small little niche environments. Then there are the bugs. As has been pointed out to you, there are literally millions of species of bugs. Even if we are only talking about having 2 each, we are talking about a hell of a lot of bugs. Maybe you are under the impression that bugs are small and don’t take up a lot of room? This is true…for a few bugs. even a LOT of bugs. But we are talking about literally MILLIONS of bugs here. Even if there was room on arc to hold them all, they would be wreaking havoc with the food supplies, getting in to everything and generally making life hell. AND, if you happen to fuck up and step on on…well, there goes that species. Bummer dude… Then there is the impossibility of Noah actually traveling to remote islands to get stuff like komodo dragons and Galapagos iguanas and such…or to expect them to all swim/fly/crawl from said islands to the Middle East. I could go on and on. The sheer mass that just 2 of each kind of animal on earth would take would dwarf the space given in the bible for the boat. The food requirements alone for several months to sustain them would even dwarf the space of the arc for so many animals. Then there is the whole deal with, um…well, poo. Waste disposal would be as monumental a task as feeding all those animals each and every day…a herculean task for an army, let alone a handful of humans. Its, simply put impossible. The folks who thought up the story didn’t have a clue how big the world really was, nor how many animals there truely are world wide…and they never thought about things like bugs or fish. They looked around the Middle East and perhaps Africa and though, hell…there aren’t all THAT many animals. We could fit em all, elephants included, on a REALLY big boat. Bit provincial in their outlook, but thats all they had to go on back then. We, however, know better…or we SHOULD (_hint hint_) if we actually thought about this stuff logically and actually bothered working out the numbers… > [@Interest](#): > > Well, based on the Biblical account of Creation, Adam and Eve had to have a super diverse human genetic material. They had enough genes to produce the human population at the time of Noah’s flood. Noah, his wife, and his sons and their wives would have still had this super supply of genes. As the only problem of human reproduction is the shrinking of the gene pool, you are supporting that humans genes started somewhere with a lot of genes, and we continually lose genes. Where, in either theory, evolution or creation, have you seen the ADDITION of genes? I see this one has been dealt with so I won’t go into it. > [@Interest](#): > > Here are ways it could have happened Um…no. Not really. Because you see, if there was a world wide flood, the fact that some species could live in diluted salt/fresh water environments wouldn’t really be too helpful…unless they can, you know, breath mud. See, in a FLOOD, especially a world wide flood, there would be a huge amount of debris swept from the land into the oceans. Ever seen a river in flood? Notice its kind of brown in color? Ever wonder why? Now, multiply that by several orders of magnitude, then a few more to be safe…then you will be close to what would have happened in a flood that could overtop mountains, and happened in a relatively short time frame. No chance the majority of aquatic species would survive that…very slim chance ANY would. > [@Interest](#): > > The flood? Creation? Well, Biblically, Creation was 6,000 years ago. The flood would have been 2304 BC +/- 11 years. Ok…that says a lot then. Take a look around you. Does the earth really look to you as if there was a world wide flood only 6000 years ago? Note that we can STILL see the effects of lesser events like the meteor crator in Arizona (or the one that, er, killed the dinosaurs in the Yucatan peninsula 😉 )…where is the evidence of this massive event that happened basically an eye blink in time? You saying that the Egyptians can build structures that last for thousands of years, yet this massive event from god has left no trace? Leave aside that you don’t understand how species propagate you don’t know much about genetics, evolution, science, etc etc…just think logically. Look around at the world…does it LOOK like there was a massive flood that put even the tallest mountains under water a mere 6000 years ago?? That such an event would leave SOME kind of evidence? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/108 "2006-09-13T02:33:16Z")
I always wondered how the Chinese scholars and court archivists writing in 2304 BCE failed to notice the entire world being flooded. You’d think one of them would have mentioned it. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/109 "2006-09-13T02:35:13Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > 😕 > > You must have missed the “\*\*Skald the Rhymer \*\* is now evil” memo. Radagast the Brown must be swiping paper from your inbox again. :smack: Never mind - Stoopid moderators, gotta be their fault. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/110 "2006-09-13T02:35:31Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You saying that the Egyptians can build structures that last for thousands of years, yet this massive event from god has left no trace? Not just no trace, but no destruction of other traces, either. A worldwide flood (especially one marked by earthquakes and other massive unheavals of land) would destroy pretty much every building on Earth. And yet, the Great Pyramid still stands, built circa 2560 BC. Not only did the Egyptians build structures lasting thousands of years, they were also flood and earthquake-proof. Clever chaps. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/111 "2006-09-13T02:42:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I always wondered how the Chinese scholars and court archivists writing in 2304 BCE failed to notice the entire world being flooded. You’d think one of them would have mentioned it. “Monday 11th, 2304 BC. Swam to work again today. Bloody Emperor wanted more pictures of these new fishpig shoals - I’m going to run out of pink at this rate. The other scholars still don’t know what we’re supposed to be counting down to. Useless gits.” ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/112 "2006-09-13T02:54:56Z")
Did we lose **Interest**? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/113 "2006-09-13T02:56:28Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Did we lose **Interest**? He’s posted today. Don’t count him out yet. Maybe he has a life or something. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/114 "2006-09-13T03:28:59Z")
> [@Interest](#): > > However, I disagree with the supposedly introduced changes into the gene pool. That has never been demonstrated scientifically, . . . Absolutely and utterly wrong. Here is an article discussing human mutation rates. [The high spontaneous mutation rate: Is it a health risk?\*](http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/94/16/8380) Note that this is not some anti-scientific glurge from a person who is trying to persuade some uninformed reader that their beliefs might be true. This is a scientific paper that is being presented to real scientists (who would tear it to shreds if it had errors) that notes, in passing, the earlier work of people who had already discovered that there were ongoing mutations in human biology and actually discovered methods to measure and categorize the rates of change. Your comment is a reflection of the ignorance demonstrated in the ICR article to which you pointed me earlier. Mutations occur all the time and many provide benefits. [Examples of Beneficial Mutations and Natural Selection](http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoMutations.html) Even some mutations that appear to be deleterious may have beneficial aspects. The mutation that leads to Sickle Cell Anemia is very helpful in reducing the risk of populations in areas of high incidences of malaria from being wiped out by that disease. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/115 "2006-09-13T04:18:50Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > Oh, please. And your evidence that a fifty ton dinosaur floats better than a tiny trilobite or insect is ? _Every_ time, not just often or usually ? Hey, is Letterman still doing Will It Float? Becuase I have a great idea for one of his shows. > [@Interest](#): > > That’s because they’re local. You need to think global here. As in the entire Earth covered in water. You know, what it will be like when the polar ice caps melt? Ever seen Waterworld? Well, yes, actually. And the stage show at Universal Studios Hollywood. (The stage show wasn’t too bad, but not nearly as good as T2:3D.) In any case there is not enough water locked up in ice to flood Denver, much less everything but parts of the Himalayas. > [@Interest](#): > > The flood would have been 2304 BC +/- 11 years. Wow, that number was reported with a level of precision you almost never see. > [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > And yet, the Great Pyramid still stands, built circa 2560 BC. Not only did the Egyptians build structures lasting thousands of years, they were also flood and earthquake-proof. Clever chaps. Oh, that’s easily explained, because the pyramids were built by aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/116 "2006-09-13T04:48:48Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Oh, that’s easily explained, because the pyramids were built by aliens. Well, _obviously_. If _Waterworld_ is a cite, so is _Stargate SG 1_. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/117 "2006-09-13T05:03:02Z")
**xtisme** [here](http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/Hartman-6.shtml) is a link which gives some numbers for the kinetic energy problem. He doesn’t do the math, but with the weight of water and the distance it is supposed to be above the earth, the rest is easy. (I didn’t check.) I haven’t had this much fun in GD in weeks! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/118 "2006-09-13T05:06:24Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > **xtisme** [here](http://www.creationtheory.org/YoungEarth/Hartman-6.shtml) is a link which gives some numbers for the kinetic energy problem. He doesn’t do the math, but with the weight of water and the distance it is supposed to be above the earth, the rest is easy. (I didn’t check.) > > I haven’t had this much fun in GD in weeks! And if I had been a bit more patient, I would have found the detailed calculation fron t.o [here.](http://groups.google.com/group/bit.listserv.skeptic/browse_thread/thread/806855bc2c6f54d7/e5099174937aecea?lnk=st&q=superheated+water+Noah+flood+kinetic+energy&rnum=10&hl=en#e5099174937aecea) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/119 "2006-09-13T06:20:21Z")
Is it possible for God to make a mind so closed it can’t be opened? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2006, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425/120 "2006-09-13T06:25:39Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > xtisme here is a link which gives some numbers for the kinetic energy problem. He doesn’t do the math, but with the weight of water and the distance it is supposed to be above the earth, the rest is easy. (I didn’t check.) > [@Voyager](#): > > And if I had been a bit more patient, I would have found the detailed calculation fron t.o here. Excellent. I thank you. And here I am, working until all hours but with time to kill as the customers firewall grinds to its eventual death! 🙂 -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-global-flood/372425.md?page=7)