# Evidence of a historical Jesus Christ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017 "2011-07-22T19:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/21 "2011-07-22T21:12:10Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > That is incredibly lame. The Slaughter of the Innocents, if it had occurred, would be the most spectacular event of Herod’s reign. I’m not quite sure what your basis for saying this is. The story of Herod’s reign as written by Nicolas and copied by Josephus includes construction and destruction of cities, large battles and wars, major natural disasters, numerous journeys and official visits from high-ranking figures, and trials and executions of important people. By contrast, how can you possibly say that the slaughter of the innocents “would be the most spectacular event of Herod’s reign”? We don’t know how many male infants were at Bethlehem but low double-digits is a good guess. In ancient Rome the authorities frequently massacred or enslaved innocent people by the hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands. More significant, though, is social class. All historians of ancient times (with the notable exception of the gospel authors) focused on the history of the wealthy and powerful. The idea that history should include the poor, lowly, and weak, didn’t really emerge until modern times. Hence it’s quite understandable that Nicolas and Josephus would ignore this particular event. ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/22 "2011-07-22T21:17:32Z")
Or you could just go to the Wikipedia page and click on all the links. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/23 "2011-07-22T21:19:13Z")
I realize infant mortality was high and accepted as a fact of life, but what kind of demographic blip is created when all the male infants in a village are deliberately slaughtered? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/24 "2011-07-22T21:19:24Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > All historians of ancient times (with the notable exception of the gospel authors) focused on the history of the wealthy and powerful. Well, Luke was a gospel author, and he focused on the history of Jesus. Can you explain why he not only didn’t mention the Slaughter and Flight, but directly contradicted it? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/25 "2011-07-22T21:21:09Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The Jewish Talmud has passages intended to denigrate Jesus. Written when? If they are from the first century, I would very much appreciate a link. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/26 "2011-07-22T21:25:33Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > The margin is larger. off the top of my head. > Wasn’t Tiberius mentioned? Tiberius is mentioned around the time of Jesus’s baptism, some 30 years after he was born. Matthew claims that Jesus was born during the reign of Herod the Great, whose date of death is well attested as 4 BCE. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/27 "2011-07-22T21:26:13Z")
Bearing in mind there is no _proof_ for anything. What I consider possible is that a young laborer from Nazareth was swayed by the preachings of John the Baptist and becomes a follower. He rises in the movement. John is executed and Jezus continues the preaching from a safe® place, Ceasarea. He gathers some followers and decides it´s time to bring his message ´to the people´. What better place than the capital. Possibly the incident in the temple is real, and maybe he preached more anti Roman stuff than is recorded. He is arrested and crucified. His followers can´t accept it´s over and start making shit up. The rest is history… ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/28 "2011-07-22T21:37:26Z")
Some of you may not be aware that Dio has suffered martyrdom for our sins, but (no one knows the time nor place) but he will one day soon rise as if from the dead and take his rightful place in this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/29 "2011-07-22T21:46:10Z")
> [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](#): > > Some of you may not be aware that Dio has suffered martyrdom for our sins ??? please elaborate. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/30 "2011-07-22T21:50:01Z")
He (DtC) was suspended not long ago…for a month, IIRC. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/31 "2011-07-22T21:52:55Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > He (DtC) was suspended not long ago…for a month, IIRC. > > -XT Really? Must be frustrating for him to have a thread like this and not being able to post. Hya Dio! Hope you´re doing well! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/32 "2011-07-22T21:56:24Z")
He certainly knows more about this particular subject that most 'dopers, and his insights into this sort of thing is always interesting. Of course, he’s probably answered the questions in this OP before, so if anyone wants to trouble to find his comments using a search it would be almost like he was still with us. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2011, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/33 "2011-07-22T23:25:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > And I’m always curious why some people reject the gospels based on the fact that they contain miracles while accepting other works that do. Non-fiction writers of the ancient world report supernatural intervention quite a bit, including Herodotus, Josephus, Tacitus, Plato, Pliny, and others. In some cases, particularly that of Herodotus, modern historians as a group reject some particular things within the narrative, yet they accept the overall narrative as historical nonetheless. Because [just as a random bit] Herodotus wrote about the scythians [also known from other documents] and mentioning that they used liquid from plants to mark cloth and the marks were as permanent as if they had been woven into the cloth [dying] which was confirmed by other documentation, that they used hemp in ‘sweat lodge’ like saunas [backed up by archeological evidence and documented in other travelers reports.] If you read Herodotus there is a fair amount that you can point to other historical evidence of, contracts, treaties, mentions by other historians, and archeological evidence. The problem with the bible, and there have been a number of fascinating books about it is that for much of the stuff reported in it there is almost nothing evidential around. We can tell from Roman records that for example there was a Pontius Pilate, I believe that there was actually a building inscription knocking around. [Found it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone). Unfortunately there is sod all of court documents around so we can not see frex some poor sod got railroaded onto a cross. We really have no record of anything _not_ reported by an official, just the stuff self published, I would sort of call it. The only real discussion of Jesus in Jewish based writings tends to be from well after the era and refer to him mainly as a heretic, leading Jews away from G-d. Of course we don’t want to get into discussing the slime who forged antiquities … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/34 "2011-07-23T00:18:34Z")
Is the OP (join date 2002) really unaware of how many threads there have been on this exact subject over the years? There must be a dozen at least. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/35 "2011-07-23T01:15:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Is the OP (join date 2002) really unaware of how many threads there have been on this exact subject over the years? There must be a dozen at least. Unfortunately the canard is repeated by the same posters([ITR Champion and JThunder](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14052803&postcount=174)) who choose to ignore the fact that their[ass was handed to them previously](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=591499) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/36 "2011-07-23T01:15:32Z")
Wikipedia has what looks like a pretty good page on the [Historicity of Jesus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus). > [@](#): > > The historicity of Jesus covers a spectrum of ideas that range from “the gospels are inerrant descriptions of the life of Jesus”[1] to “the gospels provide no historical information about Jesus’ life including his very existence”.[2][3][4][5][6] > > The majority of biblical scholars who study Early Christianity believe that the Gospels do contain some reliable information about Jesus,[7][8][9] agreeing that Jesus was a Jew who was regarded as a teacher and healer, that he was baptized by John the Baptist, and was crucified in Jerusalem on the orders of the Roman Prefect of Judaea, Pontius Pilate, on the charge of sedition against the Roman Empire. > [@](#): > > The evidence for the existence of Jesus all comes from after his lifetime.[37][38][39] As a result, some critics argue that Biblical scholars have created the historical Jesus in their own image.[40][41] A very small number of scholars believe the gospel accounts are so mythical in nature that nothing, not even the very existence of Jesus, can be determined from them. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/37 "2011-07-23T03:54:24Z")
> [@stpauler](#): > > Unfortunately the canard is repeated by the same posters([ITR Champion and JThunder](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14052803&postcount=174)) who choose to ignore the fact that their[ass was handed to them previously](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=591499) And who determined the fact that our “ass was handed to us”? I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that it’s probably you and you alone. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/38 "2011-07-23T04:11:55Z")
> [@Kinthalis](#): > > I think it’s clear that the circumstantial evidence we have makes it more likely than not that Jesus existed… > > Let me clarify that statement because it needs clarification. Specifically: who is the Jesus for whom we have evidence - circumstantial as it may be. > > The Jesus the evidence points us to is NOT the Jesus described in the bible, or rather he (or they since it’s not improbable that the legends are base don more than one person) is certainly not the Jesus some of the Bible talks about, but he possibly might be the Jesus the Bible talks about in other places. This is perhaps a bit obvious, since many of the tales can be established to be fabricated some off-hand, others though other historical sources/archaeology/language and literature studies. In post #56 of [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13317608#post13317608), I asked you to clarify your argument by explaining exactly which episodes, outside of the infancy narratives, you think are in this category. I never got an answer. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/39 "2011-07-23T04:26:44Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Because [just as a random bit] Herodotus wrote about the scythians [also known from other documents] and mentioning that they used liquid from plants to mark cloth and the marks were as permanent as if they had been woven into the cloth [dying] which was confirmed by other documentation, that they used hemp in ‘sweat lodge’ like saunas [backed up by archeological evidence and documented in other travelers reports.] If you read Herodotus there is a fair amount that you can point to other historical evidence of, contracts, treaties, mentions by other historians, and archeological evidence. > > The problem with the bible, and there have been a number of fascinating books about it is that for much of the stuff reported in it there is almost nothing evidential around. We can tell from Roman records that for example there was a Pontius Pilate, I believe that there was actually a building inscription knocking around. [Found it](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_Stone). Unfortunately there is sod all of court documents around so we can not see frex some poor sod got railroaded onto a cross. We really have no record of anything _not_ reported by an official, just the stuff self published, I would sort of call it. The only real discussion of Jesus in Jewish based writings tends to be from well after the era and refer to him mainly as a heretic, leading Jews away from G-d. As I see it, this line of reasoning puts Herodotus and the New Testament authors on similar footing as far as reliability. That is to say, in these two cases and in all ancient history we have some background information about geography, culture, and the like, and then we have narratives of specific individuals and specific events. The information in the first category can be verified to some extent, while that in the second category can’t be proved at all unless we have some other source for the same events. So with both Herodotus and the New Testament authors, we can check reliability by looking at the background information. Generally the New Testament documents are quite good as far as background information is concerned. They show solid knowledge of contemporary Jewish law, religion, and custom. The Book of Acts is particularly strong in this analysis because it contains so much information about so many different places. ([Cite](http://www.gregboyd.org/essays/essays-bible/is-the-book-of-acts-reliable/)) Of course none of this proves the occurrence of the specific events, but it is a building block in the case for overall reliability. ---
**Author:** ![Lazy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9fc29f/32.png) [@Lazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazy)\ **Post date:** [July 23, 2011, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/40 "2011-07-23T05:21:30Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > …that’s good evidence that Jesus did in fact come from Nazareth: if he didn’t, why would the census story have been made up? Except that being born in Nazareth was also fulfilling a Messiah prophecy, at least according to the Gospel of Matthew… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017.md?page=3)