# Evidence of a historical Jesus Christ **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 22, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017 "2011-07-22T19:25:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/81 "2011-07-24T18:03:18Z")
[quote=“brocks, post:72, topic:590017”] [quote=“David42, post:69, topic:590017”] I said RELATIONSHIP TO THE HORIZON > [@](#): > > It’s not clear what you said, but it’s clear you didn’t say that. First, you just said that Mars stayed in the same spot every night, and then you said “Mars still moved around the earth from east to west (as seen from earth) but it somehow seemed to linger around the same spot in the west every night.” That makes no sense, it either moves or it doesn’t, but I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you meant it stayed in the same spot relative to the stars. > > Your only mention of the horizon had to do with the very end of its 15-month period of visibility. > > No, you didn’t. You didn’t mention the stars at all. > > LOL. Here is what you expect people to read carefully: you don’t know how many months Mars stayed stationary, but maybe it was 15 months; you don’t know when it happened, probably 9 to 7 BC, but maybe 6 BC; Mars moved across the sky from east to west every day but stayed in the same spot in the west every night; you don’t know how far back you checked to see that it was a unique event; you don’t know which planet it was in conjunction with before it went below the horizon. > > Why should anyone read that mishmash carefully? > > And you say you’re aware of free virtual planetaria, so you could easily download one and give us some real facts and figures instead of your vague recollections, but you’re too lazy to do that. > > But you want me to do that. > > Well, I did, and I don’t see what you’re talking about. In particular, if I set the clock to 9 BCE, which you said is right before it happened, I see that Mars is just moving west of the sun at the beginning of that year, which means it sets before the sun does, so you wouldn’t see it on the western horizon. And it stays west of the sun all year. > > I’ve also read several articles about various phenomena that might have been what the Magi saw, and none of them sound anything like your claim, either. > > I didn’t say it was guaranteed they were Babylonians; I didn’t even say they were Babylonians. You even quoted me, correctly, saying “Babylonians, or whatever.” > > I did guarantee that Babylonian astrology manuals don’t have chapters on predicting Jewish kings. I saw the originals in the museum in Baghdad, about 30 years ago (and yes, I am fluent in ancient Akkadian). Unfortunately, they disappeared when it was looted in 2003. > > You didn’t demonstrate anything; you just asserted, with no justification whatever, that the Bible doesn’t mean what it says about the star going before the magi and then stopping above the spot where Jesus was. It would seem to me that you don’t WANT to admit that the story is absurd. I said that if you looked west every evening, it was approximately in the same place for many months. I also said, “Right before Mars went below the horizon so as not to be seen right after dusk,” which you should have been able to apply. I do admit I could have said that more clearly. You are wrong about only a few days retrograde activity. For an example, Mars will next retrograde in December 2011. It will not resume forward movement until March. Depending upon the position viewed from, retrograde motions of the planets vary. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/82 "2011-07-24T18:57:06Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Further, the claim that the Mithra cult existed long before Christianity hides an important detail. There were two separate cults, one in Persia as early as thousand years before Christ and one in the Roman Empire beginning around the year 100 A.D. They share nothing in common except the name. The details that caused some people to believe in a link between Christianity and the Mithra cult all came from the latter Roman cult, which originated after the gospels were written. [See here for a thorough discussion with references](http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html). Thanks, I will be sure to read that link. I’m not prepared to debate this one, so… I won’t. I’m still looking into it. I will point out that the Roman Mithras cult originating around 100 AD wouldn’t necessarily make it irrelevant to Christianity. The early Church went through a number of changes/evolutions, with certain points not being finalized until the Constantine-Theodosius days of the 4th century. I’ve seen claims that the early church adopted Mithraic rituals and symbols, plus the dates and meanings of various festivals (like Christmas and Easter) during this time. The early Roman Catholic church certainly had its share of borrowings from the ‘pagan’ movement, of which the Mithras cult would be a part, no? ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/83 "2011-07-24T19:08:07Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I do admit I could have said that more clearly. Big of you. I’m still not sure what you mean, and I no longer care. Either download a planetarium program and give us the exact dates and coordinates of what you’re talking about, or admit you have no clue. > [@](#): > > You are wrong about only a few days retrograde activity. For an example, Mars will next retrograde in December 2011. It will not resume forward movement until March. I didn’t say retrograde motion lasts a few days. I said that the planet appears motionless for a few days, i.e. those days when it appears to stop and reverse direction at the beginning and end of the retrograde motion. The rest of the time, it appears to be moving “backwards,” i.e. east to west wrt the fixed stars. That’s why they call it retrograde **motion**. > [@](#): > > Depending upon the position viewed from, retrograde motions of the planets vary. Correct. They also vary in brightness. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/84 "2011-07-24T19:18:57Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > The early Roman Catholic church certainly had its share of borrowings from the ‘pagan’ movement, of which the Mithras cult would be a part, no? They took the date of Christmas as December 25, which was shared as a festival by several different pagan religions. That date does not come from the Bible. (Which is why the Calvinists banned Christmas.) Other than that, I’m not aware of any other instances where contemporary scholarship accepts early Christianity borrowing from pagan religion. I’d be happy to take that up elsewhere, but this thread has clearly gone off the rails regarding the original purpose of debating the existence of Jesus. Partially my fault of course, as I made some posts in anger which I shouldn’t have made. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2011, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/85 "2011-07-24T20:18:37Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > What you said was that “conservative American Christians went to Uganda and inspired them to take Leviticus literally and enact laws calling for the death penalty for homosexuals”. Correct, for a marvel. > [@](#): > > Assuming that what you meant to link to was [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill#), it doesn’t in any way back up your claim. It merely says that three men from American attended a conference at which one person later associated with the anti-homosexuality bill also attended. Bullshit. It says three American **conservative Christian anti-gay activists were featured** at the conference and conducted workshops. And it cites articles from the NYT, Guardian, and several other sources that say they were the main speakers, or even helped organize it. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, the citation Wikipedia gives as proof that the three men were there is actually a dead link. Good heavens. There are multiple citations, and every link I tried worked just fine. They say that the three not only were featured at the conference, but at least one of them (Lively) met with Ugandan lawmakers as well (the death penalty law was introduced about a month after the conference). For example, [The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/nov/29/uganda-death-sentence-gay-sex) says, “The main speakers were three US evangelists: Scott Lively, Don Schmierer and Caleb Lee Brundidge.” After word got out and there was a backlash in western countries, several Christian leaders condemned the law, and the gang of three backed down and said they never intended a death penalty. The Ugandan MP who introduced the bill said they were just caving in to pressure: "Bahati said yesterday that he regretted Warren’s retreat. “It’s unfortunate that a man of God who has inspired many people across the world can give in to pressure and disappoint them.” [From the same article](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/13/death-penalty-uganda-homosexuals), indication that Ugandan Christians are made of sterner stuff than the weak-kneed westerners: "Around 85% of Ugandans are Christian – 40% Catholics, 35% Anglican. Muslims make up 12% of the population. In Entebbe last week, 200 religious leaders, under the powerful umbrella group Inter-Religious Council of Uganda, demanded diplomatic ties be severed with “ungodly” donor countries, including the UK, Sweden and Canada, who are “bent on forcing homosexuality on Ugandans”. > [@](#): > > This “guilt by being in the same building” line of argument is remarkably similar to the way that Glenn Beck and his type argue. This “distort and misrepresent the citations you don’t completely ignore” tactic is remarkably similar to the way the Glenn Beck and his type argue. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/86 "2011-07-25T13:29:25Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > And I’m always curious why some people reject the gospels based on the fact that they contain miracles while accepting other works that do. So those people accept the other works miracle accounts? That truly is bizarre. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Non-fiction writers of the ancient world report supernatural intervention quite a bit, including Herodotus, Josephus, Tacitus, Plato, Pliny, and others. In some cases, particularly that of Herodotus, modern historians as a group reject some particular things within the narrative, yet they accept the overall narrative as historical nonetheless. Very true - and we generally \*\*reject \*\*those miracle accounts. Yet this is not the case with the Gospels. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > On the particular issue of comparisons between the occurrence of miracles in the gospels and supernatural events in Pagan literature, when you look at the Pagan literature, whether it’s the epics, the comedies and tragedies, the historical records, or anything else, the characters treat the supernatural as normal. Gods and goddesses are smiting cities, sinking ships, sending their voices booming across the land, and everyone reacts as if this were perfectly normal. In the gospels, people treat the miraculous as if it were miraculous. I think that is your perspective - it was ‘normal’ in the sense that it wasn’t skeptically criticized (generally). Further, the analogous accounts, such as Vespisain’s miracle spit and when Jesus cured a person with spit, both were treated as miracles. > [@ITR\_champion](#): > > The Virgin Mary responds to the Angel Gabriel’s prediction of pregnancy by pointing out that it can’t happen because she’s never slept with a man. Witnesses who see Jesus perform miraculous healings are amazed and shocked. The Apostle Thomas won’t accept the resurrection until he sees the risen Christ and puts his fingers in the wounds. We can even think of these people as the first skeptics ever recorded. (There was an ancient Greek school known as “skeptics” but they didn’t have a particularly strong resistance to the supernatural.) The miracles were intended to show that Jesus was special. Other ‘special’ people had similar accounts - I’ve just listed one (Vespasian). In fact, in the other accounts of Gods impregnating people the entire point is to show that the person is no mere mortal. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [July 25, 2011, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/87 "2011-07-25T14:16:05Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Thanks, I will be sure to read that link. > > I’m not prepared to debate this one, so… I won’t. I’m still looking into it. I will point out that the Roman Mithras cult originating around 100 AD wouldn’t necessarily make it irrelevant to Christianity. The early Church went through a number of changes/evolutions, with certain points not being finalized until the Constantine-Theodosius days of the 4th century. I’ve seen claims that the early church adopted Mithraic rituals and symbols, plus the dates and meanings of various festivals (like Christmas and Easter) during this time. The early Roman Catholic church certainly had its share of borrowings from the ‘pagan’ movement, of which the Mithras cult would be a part, no? I think the claims of copying are over blown. That said, there are motifs and general themes that are shared between religions. There were ancient Christian apologists who argued that the other religions were imitations of the devil, in order to explain these similarities. Still, the claim by Achary (sp?) and co that Christianity pretty much plagarized Mithrialism or the Egyptian mysteries is probably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/88 "2011-07-28T13:07:59Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > I don’t see why you think sarcasm is called for. Absolute divine inspiration is the only reasonable position to take for any book that claims to know what God thinks, let alone one whose authors are largely anonymous. Isn’t it humans who decided what was inspired? And they are taken at their word? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/89 "2011-07-28T13:18:58Z")
[quote=“brocks, post:67, topic:590017”] sic??? really? Good heavens, are you reduced to criticizing obvious typos now? **[Matthew 21:18-22](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+21:18-22&version=NIV)** Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. “How did the fig tree wither so quickly?” they asked. Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, **not only can you do what was done to the fig tree** , but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done. \*\*If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. Emphasis mine.[/QUOTE) I apologize, I hit the wrong place to answer your quote. I was just wondering why Jesus would kill a tree because it didn’t bear fruit(which if I remember right it was out of season), when if he could use His powers to kill it; why He didn’t just cause it to produce figs, for Himself and others? ---
**Author:** ![Sablicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@Sablicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sablicious)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/90 "2011-07-28T13:58:03Z")
Jesus may have existed _and_ the Jews may have killed him. But one thing is for certain, he didn’t heal lepers by the laying of his hands and he didn’t turn water in cabernet sauvignon… and he wasn’t and early riser! ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/91 "2011-07-28T14:06:22Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I was just wondering why Jesus would kill a tree because it didn’t bear fruit(which if I remember right it was out of season), when if he could use His powers to kill it; why He didn’t just cause it to produce figs, for Himself and others? I take it as a metaphor…if a person does not bear good fruit then they die spiritually. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/92 "2011-07-28T14:29:02Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I take it as a metaphor…if a person does not bear good fruit then they die spiritually. If you want to say that passage has more than one layer, go ahead, but there is nothing metaphorical about the fact that Jesus killed the tree, and then said that anyone with faith would have the power to do the same, or anything else he prayed for. And the examples he gave (killing a tree out of spite, or throwing a mountain into the sea on a whim) make it clear that “anything” means ANYTHING, not just things that are noble or unselfish or “what God wants.” And he didn’t say that “sometimes the answer is no,” or that the most you can expect is ambiguous “signs;” he said you get instant, tangible results. That is CLEARLY not the case; in fact, if you ever get nostalgic for Shirley Temple movies, and want to see someone tapdance, just ask a Christian for a demonstration of the truth of what Jesus said in that passage. If there were a similar promise in the Quran, every Christian in the world would cite it as proof that Islam is a false religion. Any objective person would consider it a complete destruction of the credibility of the New Testament. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/93 "2011-07-28T14:54:10Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I was just wondering why Jesus would kill a tree because it didn’t bear fruit(which if I remember right it was out of season), Correct. Only a moron would have expected it to have fruit. > [@](#): > > when if he could use His powers to kill it; why He didn’t just cause it to produce figs, for Himself and others? Because he was a moron? It seems that everybody in the NT was a moron. Mary and Joseph allegedly had angels visiting them, wise men traveling hundreds of miles to give them rich gifts, Herod trying to kill their baby, and various people at the Temple proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah, all before he was two months old. Plus there was that, you know, virgin birth. But they had forgotten all about that by the time he was 12, and didn’t understand why he wasn’t like other kids. Morons. When Jesus was preaching to thousands of people in Matthew 14, his disciples didn’t now how to feed them, but Jesus allegedly took five loaves and two fishes and fed them all, with plenty left over. A few days later, in Matthew 15, the exact same situation arose, except this time there were less people and more food (seven loaves and “a few” fish). And his disciples were like, “Duh, how are we going to feed them?” Morons. And if the NT is to be believed, the Romans held a census where everyone in the empire had to return to the place his ancestors lived a thousand years before. A soldier stationed in northern Gaul, whose ancestors were from Syria, could look forward to a year-long journey, just to pay a tax. I guess it was a lot easier for the tax collectors to ensure the man was telling the truth about the size of his farm or the number of his cattle, if they were thousands of miles away. The Romans also allegedly had the interesting custom of letting people who were condemned to death go free, if the mob shouted for it. Morons. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/94 "2011-07-28T14:59:30Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > By contrast, how can you possibly say that the slaughter of the innocents “would be the most spectacular event of Herod’s reign”? We don’t know how many male infants were at Bethlehem but low double-digits is a good guess. It’s an absurd guess, given the high birthrates of those times. Granted, infant mortality would somewhat reduce the under-2 component of the population, but not by enough to make “low double-digits” a reasonable guesstimate for anything larger than a village of a few hundred. Doing a back-of-the-envelope calculation in which we assume that everybody lives to be 60, the total population is 30x the under-two component (i.e. your “low double-digits” becomes “medium triple-digits” for total town population). Using the more realistic assumption that the very young are overrepresented in the distribution (because a significant fraction of them die before adulthood), we conclude that the total population is closer to 10-15x the under-two component, and find that you are putting Bethlehem’s total population in the low triple-digits. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/95 "2011-07-28T15:31:40Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > It’s an absurd guess, given the high birthrates of those times. Right. I probably should have said it was the most “notorious” event of Herod’s reign rather than the most “spectacular,” but it defies belief that the Slaughter would not have been widely reported, if it had happened. I noted earlier that Herod’s murders of single individuals, behind closed doors, are known, so how could a public slaughter, involving possibly hundreds of families (and Matthew says it wasn’t just Bethlehem, it was “all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under)”, escape attention? And what about Luke? He was so desperate to prove that Jesus was the designated Messiah from birth, that he made up stuff about angels and shepherds and a preposterous worldwide census. He would have been all over the Slaughter, if there were even a rumor about it. Instead, he DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS it, by saying that Mary and Joseph not only did NOT flee to Egypt to get away from Herod, but took the infant Jesus to Jerusalem, presented him publicly in the Temple, had him proclaimed the Messiah by the Temple’s holy denizens, and then blithely went their way to Nazareth, with no trouble from Herod at all. And they returned to Jerusalem every year after that (again contradicting Matthew, who says they continued to stay out of Judea during the reign of Archelaus, i.e. for at least 10 more years). The Slaughter is obviously fiction. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/96 "2011-07-28T15:43:47Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > That is CLEARLY not the case; in fact, if you ever get nostalgic for Shirley Temple movies, and want to see someone tapdance, just ask a Christian for a demonstration of the truth of what Jesus said in that passage. Oh? The answer I usually get is “I guess you didn’t really have faith.” ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/97 "2011-07-28T16:11:03Z")
> [@brocks](#): > > Instead, he DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS it, by saying that Mary and Joseph not only did NOT flee to Egypt to get away from Herod, but took the infant Jesus to Jerusalem, presented him publicly in the Temple, had him proclaimed the Messiah by the Temple’s holy denizens, and then blithely went their way to Nazareth, with no trouble from Herod at all. And they returned to Jerusalem every year after that (again contradicting Matthew, who says they continued to stay out of Judea during the reign of Archelaus, i.e. for at least 10 more years). > > The Slaughter is obviously fiction. Herod had no idea what was going on is a back corner of his kingdom until later alerted it by the Magi. Plenty of time to present the infant at the temple and return home. My guess is that the Magi showed up a year later. How do you make sure you kill all the one year olds? Simple, kill all the ones under 2. If Jesus was 2, they would have killed the 4 year olds too. If you accept Herod dieing in 4 BC, and our calender missing the right year for the birth of Jesus, It is easy to see the presentation at the temple, a later flight to Egypt, and a return after Herod died. Annual visits to the temple could have become the new normal by the time Jesus was 12. Missing a few years earlier in his life would hardly be noted. Nobody that knew Jesus was the baby that Herod tried to kill would rat to the authorities. Off topic. I have often noted that Jesus spent 3 years upseting the Pharisees unharmed. He messed with the Priests’ rice bowl, and was gone in less than a week. Paul also got in trouble for hurting commerce. ---
**Author:** ![brocks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7feea3/32.png) [@brocks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brocks)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/98 "2011-07-28T17:25:13Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Herod had no idea what was going on is a back corner of his kingdom until later alerted it by the Magi. Would you agree with me that a King who would order the Slaughter of all the children two and under in Bethlehem, just in order to kill some carpenter’s infant son because some astrologers told him he might grow up and be the king, was just a bit more paranoid about threats to his throne than normal? If so, it is not likely that he had spies on constant alert for alleged threats? So even if they missed something in the “back corner” of his kingdom, how likely would it be that they would miss the public proclamations of the new Messiah by the holy denizens of the Temple in Jerusalem? > [@](#): > > Plenty of time to present the infant at the temple and return home. Except, according to Luke, home was Nazareth, not Bethlehem. So should I assume you’re a member of the Star of Nazareth club? > [@](#): > > If you accept Herod dieing in 4 BC, and our calender missing the right year for the birth of Jesus, It is easy to see the presentation at the temple, a later flight to Egypt, and a return after Herod died. Annual visits to the temple could have become the new normal by the time Jesus was 12. Missing a few years earlier in his life would hardly be noted. I guess you didn’t read either Matthew or my post very carefully, if you think the annual Temple visits resumed when Herod died. Matthew clearly states that Joseph and his family fled to Egypt, and remained there until Herod died, which we agree was 4 BCE. Depending on how old Jesus was when the magi came, and how long they stayed in Egypt after the Flight, Jesus could have been 3 or 4 by then, but was probably at least 2 years old. Then an angel told Joseph the coast was clear, and he could return to Israel. Except the angel was a moron, because a couple verses later, we learn that although Herod is dead, his son (Herod) Archelaus is now ruling Judea (where Bethlehem and Jerusalem are located), and so it’s still not safe for Joseph to go there. And this is not just what Joseph thinks; God himself warns him not to go to Judea (Matt 2:22). So Joseph “turns aside,” and settles in Nazareth, in Galilee. The story makes sense only if Mary and Joseph were living in Bethlehem before Jesus was born, and expected to return there, but moved to Nazareth because of the danger from Herod’s son. It contradicts Luke, who says they lived in Nazareth all along, and only visited Bethlehem for that ridiculous census. At any rate, Archelaus continued to rule Judea until 6 BCE, i.e. ten years after Herod died. So Jesus would probably have been at least 12 when Archelaus died. In other words, instead of Joseph taking the family to Jerusalem every year, as Luke said, the story he tells about Jesus in the Temple would actually have been the very first year since Jesus was born that they went to Jerusalem. Or, if Jesus was two years old when the magi came, and they stayed in Egypt a year or two, then Jesus was 13 or 14 before their first possible visit to the Temple according to Matthew, even he’s only 12 after many visits to the Temple in Luke’s story. > [@](#): > > Nobody that knew Jesus was the baby that Herod tried to kill would rat to the authorities. It was apparently a VERY well-kept secret, because Mary and Joseph didn’t seem to realize that Jesus was special when he was 12, and Mark 3:21 tells us that his best friends thought he was crazy. The whole story is preposterous. Why did the Magi have to ask Herod where the Messiah was born? These guys were scholars, who were so smart that they knew, from hundreds of miles away, that the Messiah had been born, so how could they not know what every Jew knew, i.e. that he would be born in Bethlehem? It would be like a psychic magically seeing the Eiffel Tower destroyed by an earthquake, but not knowing which city it was in. Matthew even says that the Star of Bethlehem LED the magi, and stopped directly over where Jesus was. So why did they have to ask anybody where he was? And besides all that, if God wanted to save Jesus, all he had to do was tell the Magi not to talk to Herod. Then Jesus is safe, and so are the untold number of innocent babies that Herod slaughtered. Wait, you say God doesn’t work that way? Well, yes, he does, because he told the Magi not to talk to Herod on their way home, didn’t he? Makes no sense at all. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/99 "2011-07-28T18:57:46Z")
Not if you don’t want it to. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2011, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017/100 "2011-07-28T19:30:02Z")
> [@thelabdude](#): > > Not if you don’t want it to. How…trite and dismissive. A summary is given by **brocks** as to why parts of the New Testament doesn’t make sense logically, and you imply that a simple handwave can make all that go away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-of-a-historical-jesus-christ/590017.md?page=6)