# Evidence Russians are Attempting to Influence the US Election **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 11, 2016, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215 "2016-10-11T05:03:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/61 "2016-10-12T21:42:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Pssst. I’m flattered, but you may have noticed that I am an obscure nobody on a minor message board. > > ETA: Wow, I’m now elevated to “people are suggesting”. I wondered about those “people” who suggest things. Now I’m one of them! There’s no reason at all to be flattered. I was talking about this thread; you are one of the people posting in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/62 "2016-10-12T21:46:06Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > My problem is with people who bat their eyelashes, and appear to be trying to say: “Russia? Why they’re not connected with the Trump campaign at all! I’m sure they’re not doing Anything to try to influence the election, and they’re completely innocent of providing disinformation that the Trump campaign will eagerly promote!” And which people is that? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/63 "2016-10-12T21:46:28Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > There’s no reason at all to be flattered. I was talking about this thread; you are one of the people posting in this thread. It was a joke, son, I say, I say, a joke. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/64 "2016-10-12T22:02:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > It was a joke, son, I say, I say, a joke. I got you were trying to make a joke, it just doesn’t make sense Malthus: That’s a strawman, that’s not what anyone’s saying Me: yes, people in this thread are saying that You: oh, I’m “people” now? How flattering! But if you gave yourself a chuckle, that’s good. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/65 "2016-10-12T22:12:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The good old tu quoque. Never grows old. 😃 > > [Tu quoque - RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) But why is that a fallacy? We have been intervening in other nation’s elections and political systems for decades, and now we are upset that other nations are doing the same to us. It is in reference to the emotional anger people have about us being influenced by a foreign nation, not the actual act itself which is unethical no matter who does it. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/66 "2016-10-12T22:26:50Z")
The Cold War was a long time ago. Nowadays a surprising amount of people on the right have favorable views of Russia, seeing it as some sort of white wonderland holdout where liberals know their place and men can be men. And die of alcohol poisoning. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/67 "2016-10-12T22:33:00Z")
[quote=“Wesley\_Clark, post:65, topic:768215”] But why is that a fallacy?QUOTE] It’s a fallacy if you use a bad thing that someone did in the past to EXCUSE a bad thing that someone else is doing in the present. IF, for example, someone were to say “It’s not a problem for Russia to interfere in US politics, because the US interfered with other countries in the past”. THAT is not logical. BOTH acts of interference would be bad. One does not excuse the other. I think what some were trying to say, though, was more along the lines of “don’t complain now that it’s YOUR ox being gored.” Not really excusing it. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/68 "2016-10-12T22:46:44Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > IF, for example, someone were to say “It’s not a problem for Russia to interfere in US politics, because the US interfered with other countries in the past”. > > THAT is not logical. BOTH acts of interference would be bad. One does not excuse the other. It’s not a bad intuition pump against a hypocrite. Maybe they’ll have a revelation about themselves and change their whole worldview. Probably not, though. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/69 "2016-10-13T01:12:24Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > We have been intervening in other nation’s elections and political systems for decades, and now we are upset that other nations are doing the same to us. Funny, I don’t recall doing that. So I can be angry at the Russian Government all I want. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/70 "2016-10-13T13:59:37Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > But why is that a fallacy? We have been intervening in other nation’s elections and political systems for decades, and now we are upset that other nations are doing the same to us. > > It is in reference to the emotional anger people have about us being influenced by a foreign nation, not the actual act itself which is unethical no matter who does it. It’s a fallacy because it suggests that somehow that anger is improper. In fact, if you think about it, the “hypocrite” charge makes no sense at all. Countries are not monolithic entities. Whatever dirty trick US government agencies did to improperly influence or negate the will of foreign voters, were not done by each and every citizen in the US who is currently a voter. In many cases, they were done secretly. Most of the really egregious ones were done decades ago, as part of the Cold War. Doing dirty tricks to attempt to swing an election is an offence against the voters of the country which is the target of the dirty tricks. It is not an offence against the government agencies in those countries who _inflict_ such dirty tricks. Therefore, there is absolutely no “hypocrisy” in complaining of current dirty tricks, simply because agencies of one’s own government have inflicted similar dirty tricks on others. Edit: **Ludovic** made the same point, but more succinctly. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/71 "2016-10-13T14:09:41Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > Funny, I don’t recall doing that. So I can be angry at the Russian Government all I want. As long as you are equally angry at your government when it did the same thing, otherwise well…, the H word comes to mind. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/72 "2016-10-13T14:23:41Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The good old tu quoque. Never grows old. 😃 > > [Tu quoque - RationalWiki](http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tu_quoque) That’s not a fallacy. The US has interfered directly and indirectly in the democratic process of most countries. Since they felt that was their interest. The US should not be surprised that Russia is doing the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/73 "2016-10-13T15:51:21Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That’s not a fallacy. The US has interfered directly and indirectly in the democratic process of most countries. Since they felt that was their interest. The US should not be surprised that Russia is doing the same thing. Interfere they certainly have. I would not say in “most countries”. Again, countries are not monolithic. The fact a US agency has done bad things to citizens of other countries does not, and should not, temper the outrage if foreign agencies do similar bad things to US citizens. The issue is not “surprise”, it is anger. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/74 "2016-10-13T15:55:10Z")
> [@Frodo](#): > > As long as you are equally angry at your government when it did the same thing, otherwise well…, the H word comes to mind. If someone punches you in the face, you are likely to be _more_ angry about it than if someone authorized by your government punches a foreigner you have never heard of in the face thousands of miles away. It is not hypocritical. It is simply reality. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/75 "2016-10-13T15:55:54Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > That’s not a fallacy. The US has interfered directly and indirectly in the democratic process of most countries. Since they felt that was their interest. The US should not be surprised that Russia is doing the same thing. Spreading disinformation is one thing. Actively hacking American’s emails and web sites is quite another. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/76 "2016-10-13T15:58:06Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > If you think Bannon whom Bloomberg once called “the Most Dangerous Political Operative in America” isn’t clever enough to set up a Google alert then yes, we’ll have to agree to disagree. It’s not _just_ “setting up a Google Alert,” it’s selectively quoting the email that the Google Alert returned to falsely attribute two sentences from Eichenwald’s piece to Blumenthal. THAT bit of chicanery originated in Russia, and it doesn’t pass the laugh test to suggest that Bannon came up with that independently. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/77 "2016-10-13T16:42:23Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If someone punches you in the face, you are likely to be _more_ angry about it than if someone authorized by your government punches a foreigner you have never heard of in the face thousands of miles away. > > It is not hypocritical. It is simply reality. I understand the emotion, but, as someone who lives in South America I can not avoid finding a little amusement in americans complaining about other countries interfering in internal political matters… ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/78 "2016-10-13T16:53:59Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Spreading disinformation is one thing. Actively hacking American’s emails and web sites is quite another. Yes, because the United States _has never done_ _that._ ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/79 "2016-10-13T17:09:57Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Yes, because the United States _has never done_ _that._ Perish the tought! ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215/80 "2016-10-13T17:12:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s not _just_ “setting up a Google Alert,” it’s selectively quoting the email that the Google Alert returned to falsely attribute two sentences from Eichenwald’s piece to Blumenthal. THAT bit of chicanery originated in Russia, and it doesn’t pass the laugh test to suggest that Bannon came up with that independently. I have mentioned twice in this thread now that the selective/mischaracterized quote was first spotted in a tweet hours before Sputnik published their story. The twitter account seems a typical American Trumpist. And I’m not suggesting Bannon came up with it independently - merely that he copied it from the article or tweet without fact checking. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evidence-russians-are-attempting-to-influence-the-us-election/768215.md?page=5)