Evidence we're not living in a simulation

The amount of time a simulation takes depends strongly on its level. A Sims simulation is fast because you don’t simulate every step. If you simulate a computer at the instruction set level, you can get through the simulation very quickly - say 10 or 100X slower than actually running the code. Running the simulation at the gate level however takes hundreds of thousands of times longer than actually running it, and it is totally impractical today to simulate down at the transistor level.
If we are living in a simulation it is a very detailed one. If God is running the simulation, then it might not matter, but I thought this was about intelligent natural beings doing it.

I agree that it would run until it converges or does what they want - but that should have happened a long time ago.

As a Last Thursdayist in good standing, I protest your despicable blasphemous heresy, sir! To think that it could have been Last Tuesday! :rolleyes:

I think where we diverge in our understanding of the matter is that I assume that they could be intelligent natural beings, but I see no reason that their ‘nature’ is the same as ours, i.e I don’t see any reason why they have to be simulating their own world. They could be running a simulation for “What happens if we run the Big Bang with different parameters for 10 gazillion cycles”. What we think of as ‘long’ could be…not long.
ETA: Of course this is not a useful insight, and it makes no difference to our lives, but that’s a given for this line of thinking anyway. I’m just exploring the idea.

As for the convergence issue - most iterative algorithms I’ve used converge when they’ve produced a relatively stable outcome. I don’t know that we could necessarily state that about our Universe in a macro time perspective. But that could just be my ignorance.

Speak for yourself. Pedophilia, schizophrenia, and cancer are pretty big bugs.

That’s a good answer to intelligent design. Not simulation.

I think Descartes wrestled with this too, and could only get to “I am.”

Damn someone stole my thunder. I think it was Jove.

So, on Fridays are Last Tuesdayists wrong because they are Old Earth Creationists, but on Wednesdays they are incorrectly Young Earth? :slight_smile:

The fixes are on the product backlog.

Not necessarily. We might have a warped view of what “big” really means, or (my favorite hypothesis) the simulation only resolves things we happen to be paying attention to. That type of system would simulate infinity rather elegantly.

But ultimately, what’s the difference between a simulated or real universe? If it’s non-falsifiable, that means there’s no way a “real” universe would necessarily behave differently from a simulated one. So who cares?

Sorry. More than once a celebrity has died, and then not have died. William Hickey died like three times before having the bad luck to die the same day as Burt Lancaster (and then it wasn’t the same day). Ann Jillian died of breast cancer. And then one day, she wasn’t dead.

Now of course, people will say I was simply mistaken. Sure, go ahead and believe that.

As far as ‘proof’ for the OP…assuming he’s not just window-dressing for MY simulation…OP, you’re sentient. You’re self-aware. I’m just not buying a ‘left on so long it attained sentience’ explanation. So you shouldn’t just be someone’s dream. But I can’t help you on any "Matrix-type’ simulations.

Maybe design issues, but not bugs in the simulation. And we don’t know anything about the designers. To them it might be a feature.

God: “Features…not bugs. You told me before you went into the pod you wanted it set to ‘extremely difficult’.”

One type of simulation is the impact of a fault on an integrated circuit. Since there are millions of faults possible, this is done efficiently by simulating the gate level design with no faults, and then simulating only those parts affected by a given fault.
I don’t buy that any of is is special - so your model naturally leads to multiverses being simulated. So the multiverse theory would be right, but it would be done very efficiently.

Actually, if you were to simulate a universe and didn’t care about computation time, then simulating all possible universes would be the way to do it: there’s a very short piece of code that just executes all possible programs, including those corresponding to a simulation of some universe, and in particular, ours. In fact, it has been argued that the low complexity of the universe (after all, it seems to work according to a program—set of equations—you can print on a T-shirt) is evidence for such an idea, since one would expect low-complexity universes to be simulated much more often, and thus, the likelihood would be to find yourself in such a universe. See in particular some ideas of Jürgen Schmidhuber.

And of course, it is possible in principle to find evidence that would disprove the idea that we live in a simulation, at least if we define ‘simulation’ as a process that could be carried out on a Turing-equivalent machine, i.e. a computer: just find some natually occurring process that is not computable, or a natural constant with a non-computable value (though of course, certifying that one has found such a process would be rather difficult). Roger Penrose’s ideas on the mind as being essentially driven by physical processes that aren’t algorithmically computable would qualify, but unfortunately, the a priori likelihood of them being correct is rather low.

In fact, in principle, all our physical theories, since they depend on the continuum of real numbers, are incomputable, which is the reason that our simulations of them utilise lattice regularized (discretized) versions; but of course, such a regularized version might very well look continuous ‘from the inside’, at least to an arbitrary degree of precision.

If I may, this is similar to the older question of how/why we assume that everything around is real.

People sometimes think of “real” and “illusion” as labels to apply to some phenomenon. But this is a very misleading way to think about it. What do we really mean when we say a dream is an “illusion”, given that I really experienced it?

What these terms really refer to is interpretations. When I wake from dreaming I am Pikachu, I can interpret that experience as that I am Pikachu, an electric…I dunno…mouse? Or I could say I am a human that had a dream. The latter interpretation best explains the totality of my experiences, and is the more useful model for deciding my future actions.
The rejected interpretation is the illusion.

The interpretation that I am a human living on Earth is currently the best one I have. To reject it, I’d need to hear another, specific interpretation that better explains the totality of my experiences, and is the more useful model going forwards, and that’s where the burden of proof lies.

I don’t really have much of an opinion one way or the other as far as whether we live in a simulation, but it is something fun to think about. As a computer scientist, I’ve always imagined that if we were in a simulation that C was essentially an artifact that arises from the quantization precision at which we’re being simulated. By that, I mean in any given state s[sub]n[/sub] we run the laws against s[sub]n-1[/sub] for a given time interval.

So, for instance, when I’ve done simulations of gravitational mechanics, I have a position, mass, velocity, and acceleration for each body. All I have to do is apply basic gravitational mechanics formulae against those for whatever our time interval is to get the next set of values. The larger the time interval, the larger the error introduced at each step of the calculation, and that error cascades. But values I put in for the time interval may or may not actually match realtime. That is, I might have each step calculated with a time interval of 1 ms, but if it takes 1s to process each step, then the calculation runs 1000x times slower than realtime. Or, in reverse, if I step by 1s, but I can calculate each frame in 1ms, then it runs 1000x faster.

What this all has to do with C is that we know that it is a constant velocity, and it arises as such because of the quantization between the steps, the photon travels that distance for each step of the calcuation, and the rest of the calculations fall in to place, just as from the grativational mechanics example from each time interval. I imagine it being like a giant massively multiprocessor system, and these photons are just messages from one processor to the next, so it can’t just get to an arbitrary cell to the next, it has to cover each one in between, and that requires each sell to recieve the photon and pass it on to the next.

Hell, this view could explain a lot of interesting things. For instance, I see it as an interesting explanation for my understanding of relativity. Objects with mass have more interactions so that cell has to do more complex calculations for each tick, so those ticks happen slower and, thus, the message travels slower. I haven’t carried this whole thought process out much farther than that, but it’s fun to think about.

As for the OP, though, I’m not sure there is any really good argument that we’re not simulated unless we could say the universe isn’t quantized. As long as it’s quantized, I think it’s possible that a sufficiently complex computer, one with enough time and memory, could calculate the observable universe. Obviously, that seems impossibly complex, but that’s only because our limits are the universe. I don’t see why there couldn’t be a universe arbitrarily larger and more complex than ours that couldn’t actually see simulating our universe as relatively simple to compute.

Jim Nabors had been dead since the late 80’s, but then surprisingly married his long-time partner a couple years ago.

And, quantum uncertainty is just dithering done below the lowest level of precision to make things smoother. Some high-end CD players did this to help smooth out the 14-bit precision of CDs.

I think it’s pretty unanswerable whether we’re a simulation or not, but objections like, “it’s too big of a universe” seem silly to me. If we are a simulation, we have no idea how big the actual universe is. We have no idea how long it takes for the simulation to go from one planck moment to the next in the real universe. And, there’s no reason to believe that we’re the point of the simulation anyway – we’re much too tiny to be the point of it anyway. Imagine a really, really, really large game of Conway’s Life running for a billion years. In section ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha of the simulation, there are some interesting things happening between the life cells, but the person running that simulation would probably not look at that level of detail. It’s more likely that the person is checking interactions between galaxies, and how the universe is evolving on a broad scale.

God:
This &&^%#%& thing is just taking too long to run on this old piece of junk.

Son of God:
Hey, Dad, just randomize the small stuff at the quantum level, it really won’t make any difference on the macro simulation.

So God made the small stuff random and unknowable to the simulated beings. He saved himself a bucket load of compute cycles, and He saw that it was good. In the end, He was glad that he had sent the kid to MIT.