# "Evil customs of the forest" in the Magna Carta **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 8, 2012, 9:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810 "2012-01-08T09:13:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/21 "2012-01-10T22:49:28Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As to practical impact - as soon as John was out of the clutches of his angry barons, he got the Pope to annul it as coerced! Which goes to show that formal legality isn’t everything … John had already lost an earlier dispute with Pope Innocent III and had agreed to recognize the Pope as his feudal lord as part of the settlement. So Innocent didn’t see overruling the Magna Carta as supporting John so much as he saw it upholding Papal authority over England that passed through John. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/22 "2012-01-10T22:57:20Z")
I think the three legislators who submitted this bill deserve full credit: Bob Kingsbury of Belknap County’s 4th District, Tim Twombly of Hillsborough County’s 25th District, and Lou Vita of Strafford County’s 3rd District. The entire text of the bill states: _“All members of the general court proposing bills and resolutions addressing individual rights or liberties shall include a direct quote from the Magna Carta which sets forth the article from which the individual right or liberty is derived.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/23 "2012-01-10T23:25:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I think the three legislators who submitted this bill deserve full credit: Bob Kingsbury of Belknap County’s 4th District, Tim Twombly of Hillsborough County’s 25th District, and Lou Vita of Strafford County’s 3rd District. The entire text of the bill states: _“All members of the general court proposing bills and resolutions addressing individual rights or liberties shall include a direct quote from the Magna Carta which sets forth the article from which the individual right or liberty is derived.”_ I can see New Hampshire bills now referencing the requirement that “no member of the d’Athée family could be a royal officer” and calling “for all foreign knights and mercenaries to leave the realm”, not to mention “the return of Welsh and Scottish hostages”. 😃 I mean, if you were a Welsh or Scottish hostage, no doubt you would wish to leave New Hampshire also. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/24 "2012-01-10T23:45:29Z")
The phrase “evil customs of the forest” keeps conjuring up banjo music. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/25 "2012-01-11T00:01:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I mean, if you were a Welsh or Scottish hostage, no doubt you would wish to leave New Hampshire also. I’m descended from a Scottish POW sent to work in the Saugus Ironworks in the 1650’s - we left all of New England as soon as we could 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/26 "2012-01-11T00:19:19Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I can see New Hampshire bills now referencing the requirement that “no member of the d’Athée family could be a royal officer” and calling “for all foreign knights and mercenaries to leave the realm”, not to mention “the return of Welsh and Scottish hostages”. 😃 > > I mean, if you were a Welsh or Scottish hostage, no doubt you would wish to leave New Hampshire also. For too long our inquests of novel disseisin, of mort d’ancestor, and of darrein presentment have been held all over the place. No more I say. They should be held at county court twice a year under two justiciaries sent by the chief justiciar just like they were back in my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather’s time. ---
**Author:** ![Blakeyrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blakeyrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blakeyrat)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/27 "2012-01-11T21:14:05Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > The UK has written laws, it isn’t like their whole system of government is unwritten. Most people know it isn’t correct to say the UK has no constitution, nor is it correct to even say it doesn’t have a _written_ constitution. It is rather correct to say that there is no singular “plan of government” ala America’s constitution, but there are many written acts of Parliament, court decisions and etc stretching back hundreds of years that form a legal framework that lawmakers, judges, and lawyers can use. Ah, that makes much more sense to me. Thanks for the explanation. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/28 "2012-01-11T21:33:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > For too long our inquests of novel disseisin, of mort d’ancestor, and of darrein presentment have been held all over the place. No more I say. They should be held at county court twice a year under two justiciaries sent by the chief justiciar just like they were back in my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather’s time. 😃 Seriously though - can anyone tell me the thinking behind this seemingly bizzare New Hampshire suggested requirement? What on earth, other than employing some jokers to make hilariously tangental attributions, is it supposed to accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/29 "2012-01-11T21:49:32Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Seriously though - can anyone tell me the thinking behind this seemingly bizzare New Hampshire suggested requirement? What on earth, other than employing some jokers to make hilariously tangental attributions, is it supposed to accomplish? Presumably they are being extremely conservative, and don’t want any new human rights being claimed in New Hampshire: “new” meaning not thought of by the English barons 800 years ago. Perhaps they want New Hampshire to return to being a colony under the British crown, under the feudal rule of a Baron of New Hampshire. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/30 "2012-01-11T21:49:55Z")
There are and have been places whose laws weren’t written at all, though. King Teobaldo I (or Thibault I) of Navarre found out when he took posession of the kingdom he’d inherited from a distant cousin that there were very few written laws, and those were mostly (temporary) privileges granted to a gvien area to attract population and/or minutes from parliament (which wasn’t anything as fancy as what we call by that name nowadays). Criminal law, what’s that? At the same time, the legal system inherited from the Romans to which he was used was clearly not what people used. His solution was the compilation called the Old Fueros, obtained by asking people how would they deal with suchandsuch case and reaching agreements. Other cultures have been even less literate, yet they had legal systems. Thibault inherited in 1234; the kingdom had been born c. 817 ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/31 "2012-01-11T21:56:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > 😃 > > Seriously though - can anyone tell me the thinking behind this seemingly bizzare New Hampshire suggested requirement? What on earth, other than employing some jokers to make hilariously tangental attributions, is it supposed to accomplish? It sounds like people determined to gum up the works and waste as much of everyone’s time and money as they can. Scumbags, in other words. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/32 "2012-01-11T21:58:55Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Presumably they are being extremely conservative, and don’t want any new human rights being claimed in New Hampshire: “new” meaning not thought of by the English barons 800 years ago. Perhaps they want New Hampshire to return to being a colony under the British crown, under the feudal rule of a Baron of New Hampshire. Heh the law as drafted states that everyone has to draw a direct quote from the Magna Carta as the origin of rights. I guess the notion is that if you can’t, then you can’t claim the right … I wonder if the opposite is true: that is, if you can support it with a quote, you can claim the right. 😃 Like the right not to be imprisioned on the testimony of a woman! > [@](#): > > Clause 54 said that no man may be imprisoned on the testimony of a woman except on the death of her husband. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/33 "2012-01-11T22:06:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Like the right not to be imprisioned on the testimony of a woman! Of course: letting women testify in courts would be like letting women own property, or letting men below the rank of a knight vote for the parliament. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/34 "2012-01-11T22:14:38Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Of course: letting women testify in courts would be like letting women own property, or letting men below the rank of a knight vote for the parliament. The lawyer in me protests! Nothing stopping a woman from testifying. Nor from having her testimony believed. You just can’t exact the punisment of imprisonment on a man based on that testimony. Presumably you can fine him, though. See? perfectly reasonable. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/35 "2012-01-11T22:35:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The lawyer in me protests! > > Nothing stopping a woman from testifying. Nor from having her testimony believed. You just can’t exact the punisment of imprisonment on a man based on that testimony. Presumably you can fine him, though. No, it says the court can’t imprison the man until the witness’s husband is killed. Presumably on order of the court, if my reading is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/36 "2012-01-11T22:42:53Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > No, it says the court can’t imprison the man until the witness’s husband is killed. Presumably on order of the court, if my reading is correct. Only one way to solve this - draft a bill to that effect in New Hampshire. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/37 "2012-01-11T22:45:59Z")
A.P. Herbert’s _Misleading Cases_, a parody of the legal reports, dealt with this question in _R. v. Haddock_: Is Magna Carta Law?– _Punch_, 16 February 1927 ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/38 "2012-01-12T14:04:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The lawyer in me protests! > > Nothing stopping a woman from testifying. Nor from having her testimony believed. You just can’t exact the punisment of imprisonment on a man based on that testimony. Presumably you can fine him, though. A fine idea, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/39 "2012-01-13T08:50:20Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Presumably they are being extremely conservative, and don’t want any new human rights being claimed in New Hampshire: “new” meaning not thought of by the English barons 800 years ago. Perhaps they want New Hampshire to return to being a colony under the British crown, under the feudal rule of a Baron of New Hampshire. I’m hereby throwing my hat in the ring for the crown of Baron New Hampshire. My right honoured and noble lineage extends as far back as last Tuesday ; my claim to dominion over the land is made even more unshakeable that I’ve never set foot in the wretched place and as such can’t be denied through tiresome red tape, land deeds or old feuds ; and I can pinpoint NH on a map of the US on the fiftieth try, tops. In other words, I’m the best possible candidate. If anyone is wondering, my second edict will be to make the colour orange illegal. My first edict will of course be “bring me all of the beer in all of the land”, as befits the ancestral customs of House Kobal. ---
**Author:** ![WotNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e19b73/32.png) [@WotNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WotNot)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810/40 "2012-01-13T09:16:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I’m hereby throwing my hat in the ring for the crown of Baron New Hampshire. 'Tis not a crown, neither, 'tis one of these coronets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-customs-of-the-forest-in-the-magna-carta/608810.md?page=3)