# Evil/heinous charaters in Game of thrones? \[Spoilers likely\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 1, 2019, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329 "2019-05-01T16:33:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/41 "2019-05-02T14:08:36Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Yes, he murdered his brother. He most certainly appears to be all you say, but as I wrote, I failed to remember any clearly evil act he actually committed in the show, except for serving and backing the “bad guy” Cersei and delivering to her her ennemies. I could arguably put him higher on the list, but I feel that we have rather been induced into viewing him as evil while he actually did vastly less than most other characters. Is your list “things we have seen them do, do not judge their character” or “the person we are led to believe they are”? Also, Euron wanted to kill his niece and nephew too although he did keep his niece alive in the end but not for love or concern for her. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/42 "2019-05-02T14:13:59Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Well we now know that Melisandre wasn’t just doing it for power. Ultimately, many of her acts that in the short term served to bring Stannis to power were in the long run for the purpose of saving humanity from the Night King. They really weren’t. They only went up to the North because Davos managed to persuade Stannis that he might not have a kingdom to rule over if the Wildling army broke through the Wall, and once Mance was burned at the stake they promptly headed south again. If fighting the Night King was so important you’d think Melisandre would have mentioned that at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/43 "2019-05-02T14:41:19Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > All but one - but I thought that was on Joffrey’s orders? That was happening long before Joffrey could give orders. For Joffrey to care about Robert’s bastards he would have to know he isn’t really a Baratheon. That’s not something his mother shared with him. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/44 "2019-05-02T15:18:51Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > 1. Khal Drogo (might surprise some, but I think he’s one of the worst character of the series, living only to murder, rape enslave and plunder. If that’s the criteria, couldn’t you put all the Ironborn up here? As Yara says, raping and raiding are their way of life. > [@Loach](#): > > That was happening long before Joffrey could give orders. > > For Joffrey to care about Robert’s bastards he would have to know he isn’t really a Baratheon. That’s not something his mother shared with him. Might be a difference between show and books, but in the show it’s implied to be Joffrey’s order. It happens after he is named king. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/45 "2019-05-02T15:27:32Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > If that’s the criteria, couldn’t you put all the Ironborn up here? As Yara says, raping and raiding are their way of life. > > Might be a difference between show and books, but in the show it’s implied to be Joffrey’s order. It happens after he is named king. Are you sure? Because the whole bastard thing happened because of John Arryn poking his nose in. Joffrey was a kid and had no reason to believe he wasn’t a Baratheon. The bastards weren’t a threat to anyone who didn’t know the truth about his birth. He’s the rightful king and then Tommen. Bastard Baratheons don’t matter unless you know your son is your brothers kid. I thought it was clear that it was Cersei. I’ll have to go back and look. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/46 "2019-05-02T15:33:34Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Are you sure? Because the whole bastard thing happened because of John Arryn poking his nose in. Joffrey was a kid and had no reason to believe he wasn’t a Baratheon. The bastards weren’t a threat to anyone who didn’t know the truth about his birth. He’s the rightful king and then Tommen. Bastard Baratheons don’t matter unless you know your son is your brothers kid. I thought it was clear that it was Cersei. I’ll have to go back and look. It happens in the second season, episode 2, after Ned sent out the letter telling everyone that Joffrey illegitimate. Joffrey confronts his mother about it, asks about the bastards, cut to a baby being murdered. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/47 "2019-05-02T15:36:53Z")
That’s how I remember it. I thought it was Joffrey being royally, dickishly violent, as he was wont to be. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/48 "2019-05-02T16:27:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > I would put Walder Frey way lower on the list, or remove him completely. Guy was completely fucked by the Starks, not only by their personal betrayal of their oaths to him but by their own self sabotage of their war. He did the only thing he could to save his family after making a huge mistake by supporting the Starks. Maybe you’re right in part, but he did it with glee, not exactly reluctantly. And having Rob’s wife stabbed in the belly isn’t exactly the action of someone who acts only out of necessity. Also, there’s a scene in the following episode that I really liked at the time and only rewatched for the first time some days ago : lord Frey talking with lord Bolton after the massacre. While lord Frey rejoices loudly and mocks Rob Stark, lord Bolton is much more reserved. And he states that things wouldn’t have come to this if Rob had been less of an idiot and more willing to listen to some of his advices. It’s clear that although lord Bolton acted out of self-interest and expediency, he took no pleasure in the whole affair, while lord Frey seems to have enjoyed it greatly. I regretted Bolton’s death in good part due to this scene, that camped him IMO as a very interesting character despite his treachery, while it left me seeing Frey as a despicable piece of shit. Lord Bolton was a villain, but possibly my preferred villain in the show, and a very bright man. I regretted that his job was taken over by Ramsay that I found vastly less interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/49 "2019-05-02T16:58:34Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > That’s how I remember it. I thought it was Joffrey being royally, dickishly violent, as he was wont to be. Maybe it was implied differently in the books. Or maybe I’m just not remembering right. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/50 "2019-05-02T18:31:54Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > I’m not sure I’d put Tywin on the list, honestly. In the context of the show, he was one of the most stand-up guys we’ve seen, maybe only second behind Ned. Both Robb and Jon broke solemn oaths; I don’t see Tywin doing that. > [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > He had been Hand to the King and turned against that king, just as his son did. He arranged for Tyrion’s first wife to be gang-raped. He was behind the Red Wedding. And they don’t sing “The Rains of Castamere” out of admiration for his tender-heartedness. Tywin stayed out of the rebellion until it seemed that Robert’s forces would win. Then he entered Kings Landing with his troops on the pretext that they would defend it against the rebellion. But he betrayed the king and the city was sacked and the entire royal family brutally slaughtered on his orders. (Well, Jaime killed Aerys on his own initiative.) Tywin was not a stand-up guy in any way. And of course the Red Wedding was his idea. He did it to eliminate a threat but chose to do it by treachery. Walder Frey violated guest-right, but it was Tywin’s plan. > [@clairobscur](#): > > Lord Bolton was a villain, but possibly my preferred villain in the show, and a very bright man. I regretted that his job was taken over by Ramsay that I found vastly less interesting. Roose fathered Ramsay when he hanged a miller for marrying without permission and then brutally raped his bride under the swinging corpse. She later brought the child to him saying it was his. Roose and Tywin are more interesting villains because they are smart, to be sure, and much more so than stupid and one dimensional villains like Ramsay and Joffrey. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/51 "2019-05-02T18:35:40Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > It happens in the second season, episode 2, after Ned sent out the letter telling everyone that Joffrey illegitimate. Joffrey confronts his mother about it, asks about the bastards, cut to a baby being murdered. > [@Loach](#): > > Maybe it was implied differently in the books. Or maybe I’m just not remembering right. In the show they were definitely murdered on Joffrey’s orders, not Cersei’s. Even if Joffrey believed he was a Baratheon, if the public did not the bastards would still be a threat to his rule. And besides, it gave him an excuse to murder babies. ---
**Author:** ![Yodalicious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yodalicious/32/8195_2.png) [@Yodalicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yodalicious)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/52 "2019-05-02T21:06:02Z")
I don’t remember his name, so he may be in the OP’s list - Gilly’s father. Possibly one of the most heinous men ever. Sent from my 2PZC5 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/53 "2019-05-02T21:23:13Z")
> [@Yodalicious](#): > > I don’t remember his name, so he may be in the OP’s list - Gilly’s father. Possibly one of the most heinous men ever. Craster. He took his daughters as wives and gave his sons up to the White Walkers. I never understood why the other Wildlings didn’t just kill him and take his women and food. They thought his incestuous habits were disgusting and hated him for his dealings with the Night’s Watch. As the only man to defend his “keep” he would have been a pushover for almost any attack. It would have made more sense for him to keep his sons to help defend the keep, but then of course he would have to share their sisters or risk them rebelling. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/54 "2019-05-02T21:26:52Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > Craster. He took his daughters as wives and gave his sons up to the White Walkers. > > I never understood why the other Wildlings didn’t just kill him and take his women and food. They thought his incestuous habits were disgusting and hated him for his dealings with the Night’s Watch. As the only man to defend his “keep” he would have been a pushover for almost any attack. It would have made more sense for him to keep his sons to help defend the keep, but then of course he would have to share their sisters or risk them rebelling. Maybe the White Walkers protected it. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/55 "2019-05-02T21:32:49Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Maybe the White Walkers protected it. He had been doing this for decades before the White Walkers started being seen. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/56 "2019-05-02T21:36:13Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > He had been doing this for decades before the White Walkers started being seen. Maybe they hadn’t been seen because any wildling who got close was killed by them. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/57 "2019-05-02T21:48:59Z")
> [@AlsoNamedBort](#): > > Maybe they hadn’t been seen because any wildling who got close was killed by them. In the first season, the White Walkers hadn’t been seen by anyone of thousands of years. So it was unlikely they were around Craster’s keep before that. ---
**Author:** ![AlsoNamedBort](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alsonamedbort/32/3213_2.png) [@AlsoNamedBort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlsoNamedBort)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/58 "2019-05-02T21:52:55Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > In the first season, the White Walkers hadn’t been seen by anyone of thousands of years. So it was unlikely they were around Craster’s keep before that. We’re told that by people south of the wall. They haven’t seen a White Walker in thousands of years, that doesn’t mean they weren’t active. Do you think that baby we saw was the first one turned? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/59 "2019-05-02T22:09:54Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > In the first season, the White Walkers hadn’t been seen by anyone of thousands of years. So it was unlikely they were around Craster’s keep before that. Craster had been giving his sons to the White Walkers for decades. The White Walkers had been unseen by _anyone else_ for centuries, but Craster had known about them. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2019, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329/60 "2019-05-03T00:46:46Z")
You guys make a compelling case about Tywin. You’ve convinced me there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evil-heinous-charaters-in-game-of-thrones-spoilers-likely/833329.md?page=4)