# Evolution and Dinosaurs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860 "2007-10-24T20:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/21 "2007-10-25T13:50:57Z")
[QUOTE=xxfireangel13xx] I believe in evolution and my boyfriend does not, he pointed out that there is a gap somewhere before the dinosaurs. [/QUOTE] Little to add to what has been offered already, other than to offer that “gap” theory will always appeal to true believers. In actuality, there are countless “gaps” in the fossil record, simply because of the fragmentary nature of that record. Moreover, even if a “transitional” species were identified to fill the “gap” your boyfriend posits, rather than resolving things to his satisfaction, he would likely point out that there were now _two_ gaps, one on either side of the newly identified species. And math - isn’t that just full of theories? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/22 "2007-10-25T15:07:27Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] When presented with this argument I’ve said ‘You’re wrong. Man didn’t evolve from apes. Man and apes evolved from the same ancestor.’ Anything after that is just reinforcing the idea that they have it wrong. [/QUOTE] I really dislike this line of arguing. I think it borders on being dishonest. It’s true that humans didn’t evolve from any of the types of apes that currently exist - we didn’t descend from chimpanzees nor gorillas. But the common ancestor that we _did_ share with chimps, was surely an ape by any definition of the word. We did evolve from apes! Or maybe not _from_ apes, because we’re _still_ apes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/23 "2007-10-25T15:24:26Z")
[QUOTE=DrFidelius] Size is a fairly trivial attribute. [/QUOTE] :dubious: [Ahem.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Godzilla.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/24 "2007-10-25T15:31:23Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] When presented with this argument I’ve said ‘You’re wrong. Man didn’t evolve from apes. Man and apes evolved from the same ancestor.’ Anything after that is just reinforcing the idea that they have it wrong. [/QUOTE] Well, that’s not quite right. Humans didn’t evolve from any extant ape, but we most certainly did evolve from an extinct ape (and we are still apes today, by any reasonable definition of the term “ape”). Building a cladogram of the great apes, starting with humans and our closest relatives, you have: The clade including chimps, bonobos and humans. The clade including chimps, bonobos, humans and gorillas (all species lumped together) The clade including chimps, bonobos, humans, gorillas, and orangutans (all species lumped together. Given the relatively recent divergence of humans in that clade (only about 5-6M years ago) compared to the much older divergence of orangs (about 13M years), it’s hard to call everything else an “ape” and not call us an ape as well. BTW, Wikipedia has a nice little timeline of some of the [key milestones in the evolution of humans](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_timeline_of_human_evolution) from the earliest life forms on earth. Now, there are lots of [paraphyletic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphyly) groupings out there\*, and you could create a separate non-ape classification for humans, but most biologists do not. \*The term “monkey” is paraphyletic, since old world monkeys are more closely related to apes than they are to new world monkeys. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/25 "2007-10-25T15:40:28Z")
Evolution must be wrong–look how evolutionists can’t even agree with each other! (ducking & running) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/26 "2007-10-25T16:02:48Z")
It’s funny how Creationists think that’s a weak point in the science, when it actually proves the exact opposite. Creationism is all about doctrine and not questioning that doctrine in any way. Science is all about questioning everything. ---
**Author:** ![Onomatopoeia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/onomatopoeia/32/4145_2.png) [@Onomatopoeia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Onomatopoeia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/27 "2007-10-25T16:24:00Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s funny how Creationists think that’s a weak point in the science, when it actually proves the exact opposite. Creationism is all about doctrine and not questioning that doctrine in any way. Science is all about questioning everything. [/QUOTE] As someone alluded in another thread, lack of an explanation or concensus for any aspect of evolution theory somehow automatically validates creationism. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/28 "2007-10-25T16:45:35Z")
[QUOTE=Onomatopoeia] As someone alluded in another thread, lack of an explanation or concensus for any aspect of evolution theory somehow automatically validates creationism. Go figure. [/QUOTE] Yeah. We should demand that all the religions in the world reach consensus on their Creation “Theories”. That would be interesting! ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/29 "2007-10-25T16:49:48Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Little to add to what has been offered already, other than to offer that “gap” theory will always appeal to true believers. In actuality, there are countless “gaps” in the fossil record, simply because of the fragmentary nature of that record. Moreover, even if a “transitional” species were identified to fill the “gap” your boyfriend posits, rather than resolving things to his satisfaction, he would likely point out that there were now _two_ gaps, one on either side of the newly identified species. And math - isn’t that just full of theories? [/QUOTE] Naw naw naw. Definitions, theorems and proofs. Only you head in the ground science dudes have these ‘theories’. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/30 "2007-10-25T16:55:12Z")
[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck] Naw naw naw. Definitions, theorems and proofs. Only you head in the ground science dudes have these ‘theories’. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Well, math and science are two different animals. Theorems and proofs (math) are about truth, whereas science is about understanding the physical world. Usually lumped in with the sciences, I believe that most theoretical mathematicians would not call themselves “scientists”, but rather think of what they do as more akin to philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/31 "2007-10-25T21:33:46Z")
YES! that is what its called. Thanks.. I still don’t quite understand it but that’s what this message board is for right? [QUOTE=Malodorous] Your bf is perhaps talking about the [Cambrian Explosion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion)? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/32 "2007-10-25T21:37:47Z")
Yeah thanks. LOL i \*am \* trying to be polite.. hence the “belief in evolution” because there are many people who don’t and I didn’t want to say “i know evolution is real” and then start a whole debate with religous nuts that had nothing to do with my original question. So thank you for that. I appreciate it. [QUOTE=dropzone] (looking around the room, glaring) Welcome, **xxfireangel13xx**! “Evolution” is not a belief system, like a religion, but I assume you understand that and mean that you believe that evolution is the best way we’ve found to explain why organisms today are different from organisms in the past. But some of our friends here are a bit literal-minded and lacking in people skills. You know–nerds. 😃 Others are wiseasses. Feel free to mentally knock them upside the head, though if you wish to do it verbally we have a separate forum for that. One that I don’t recommend polite young ladies like you to enter. :eek: [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/33 "2007-10-25T21:49:32Z")
[QUOTE=xxfireangel13xx] Yeah thanks. LOL i \*am \* trying to be polite.. hence the “belief in evolution” because there are many people who don’t and I didn’t want to say “i know evolution is real” and then start a whole debate with religous nuts that had nothing to do with my original question. So thank you for that. I appreciate it. [/QUOTE] You don’t need to worry about that here. We may have one or two Creationists hanging around now and again, but you’ll find more Bush supporters\* here than Creationists! 🙂 \*If you didn’t know, this is a very anti-Bush message board. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/34 "2007-10-25T21:51:45Z")
There are probably more tinfoil 9/11 CT folks than Creationists on this board. Not sure if John is right about Bush supporters though…I think there are more Creationists than supporters of Bush. 😉 -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2007, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/35 "2007-10-25T22:17:11Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] There are probably more tinfoil 9/11 CT folks than Creationists on this board. Not sure if John is right about Bush supporters though…I think there are more Creationists than supporters of Bush. 😉 -XT [/QUOTE] The former would almost certainly be a subset of the latter. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/36 "2007-10-26T13:59:24Z")
[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck] Naw naw naw. Definitions, theorems and proofs. Only you head in the ground science dudes have these ‘theories’. 🙂 [/QUOTE] Theories/theorems. What’s the big diff? We’re talking about a difference of one whole letter! And don’t go grouping me with those “head in the ground science dudes.” Me, I’m a clear thinking lawyer. “What would you _like_ that to mean…?” ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/37 "2007-10-26T16:17:14Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Well, that’s not quite right. Humans didn’t evolve from any extant ape, but we most certainly did evolve from an extinct ape (and we are still apes today, by any reasonable definition of the term “ape”). [/QUOTE] I know what you’re saying, but this is more difficult to explain than what I said. When you’re talking to someone who’s knowledge of evolution consists of ‘man came from monkeys’ and ‘the priest guy said it was bad’ then you have to pick your arguments carefully. Just getting them to understand that they don’t understand is hard enough, but if you can do it it’s a good first step. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/38 "2007-10-26T16:35:34Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] ‘the priest guy said it was bad’ [/QUOTE] [ironic nitpick] In the U.S., all the significant groups that employ priest guys are quite comfortable with the scientific theory of evolution. [/ironic nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/39 "2007-10-26T16:51:25Z")
I saw a show once that said many dinosaurs were the size of chickens, and that the average size of dinosaurs was about sheep-sized. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/40 "2007-10-26T18:09:10Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] This is, incidently, the story with most major groups: they almost always start out small and grow to large sizes later in their evolution. [/QUOTE] When Darwin talks, people should listen. When **Darwin’s Finch** talks, people should put down the bottle and go to bed. 🆒 Posts like yours are what keeps me coming back to this board, **DF**. Thank you. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860.md?page=3)