# Evolution and Dinosaurs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860 "2007-10-24T20:07:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/41 "2007-10-26T18:15:44Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] I know what you’re saying, but this is more difficult to explain than what I said. When you’re talking to someone who’s knowledge of evolution consists of ‘man came from monkeys’ and ‘the priest guy said it was bad’ then you have to pick your arguments carefully. Just getting them to understand that they don’t understand is hard enough, but if you can do it it’s a good first step. [/QUOTE] I find it better not to fight ignorance with ignorance. It’s easy enough to explain to folks that we aren’t descended from any living species of ape, but rather from an extinct ape that gave rise to both chimps and humans. If they’re hard-core Creationists, of course, it isn’t going to matter what you say. If you say we’re not descended from apes, the next logical question is: Well, then what are we descended from? At that point you either say “an ape”, or you lie and say… well, I don’t what you’d say other than “a monkey”, which puts you back to square one. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/42 "2007-10-26T18:45:18Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I find it better not to fight ignorance with ignorance. It’s easy enough to explain to folks that we aren’t descended from any living species of ape, but rather from an extinct ape that gave rise to both chimps and humans. If they’re hard-core Creationists, of course, it isn’t going to matter what you say. [/QUOTE] I’m not fighting ignorance with ignorance, I’m fighting ignorance by pointing ignorance out. If you can show them that what they think of as evolution is in fact not what science thinks of as evolution, and they actually believe you, you can try to get them to understand it better, and hopefully get past the problems they have with it. Showing them that the problems they think are there really aren’t leaves them with no problems. Of course, they have to believe you first. > [@](#): > > If you say we’re not descended from apes, the next logical question is: Well, then what are we descended from? At that point you either say “an ape”, or you lie and say… well, I don’t what you’d say other than “a monkey”, which puts you back to square one. The argument that started this was ‘If people evolved from apes why do apes still exist?’. While you can say that man did evolve from ape, the question puts special meaning on the word ape, and so I don’t think it should be used again in the answer. It’s obvious that the questioner intends ‘apes’ to mean ‘modern apes’ and is not distinguishing between apes then and apes now. If you say we did evolve from apes, you risk them thinking that we evolved from modern apes, which just reinforces the validity of their question. My answer takes focus away from this and I try to give a better understanding of the ideas. Yes, we did evolve from a common ancestor, and yes that ancestor was an ape of some kind. I just think it’s best to get them away from the bad ideas first, then try to get them to understand the good ones. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/43 "2007-10-26T18:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=Johnny L.A.] I saw a show once that said many dinosaurs were the size of chickens, and that the average size of dinosaurs was about sheep-sized. [/QUOTE] There were, indeed, many chicken-sized dinosaurs (though not necessarily many chicken-sized _species_ of dinosaur). However, the sheep-sized estimate is probably a bit on the low side. [This graph](http://microlnx.com/dinosaurs/Hotton.html) shows that the average dinosaur weight (out of about 63 genera) was ~850kg - substantially larger than your average sheep, to say the least. I’d take that number with a grain or two of salt, though, as it only represents a sample of ~10% of all known dinosaur genera, and I’m not sure which ones were picked for the study. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/44 "2007-10-26T19:28:09Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] I’m not fighting ignorance with ignorance… [/quote] “Man didn’t evolve from apes” is simply not correct. If “not correct” isn’t “ignorance”, then we’re not speaking the same language. Do what you think works, but don’t come here and try to convince us that A is not A. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/45 "2007-10-26T20:21:19Z")
It’s easy enough to just modify the statement to “man didn’t evolve from _modern apes_”, isn’t it? (Or does ‘modern’ have a broader paleontological meaning that makes this also untrue?) ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/46 "2007-10-26T20:23:32Z")
I don’t think he does.. He used to but then he read this thing about the cambrian explosion and now I think he doesn’t.. he says it can’t be proven no matter what.. but its the cambrian explosion that really turned him..that’s what i’m trying to understand.. I just had forgotten the name of it when i oringally post this [QUOTE=Mangetout] Kind of a tangent, but maybe not. What _does_ your boyfriend believe? - the answer to this will make a big difference as to how the topic can (if at all) be meaningfully discussed with him. I’ve only met one person who flat out didn’t accept evolution, but wasn’t a creationist of any particularly identifiable kind - my previous (now retired) boss - he argued the origin and diversity of life to be an unsolved mystery, and would come out with such gems as “If sharks evolved, why isn’t _everything_ a shark?” (I tried to explain about different niches, but it didn’t go in) and “If evolution is true, how could something as ridiculously unsuited for survival as the giraffe come to exist?” (I pointed out that if the giraffe was unsuited for survival, there simply wouldn’t _be_ any giraffes). [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/47 "2007-10-26T20:26:20Z")
[QUOTE=Mangetout] It’s easy enough to just modify the statement to “man didn’t evolve from _modern apes_”, isn’t it? (Or does ‘modern’ have a broader paleontological meaning that makes this also untrue?) [/QUOTE] Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. If the person is a die-hard Creationist, he isn’t going to accept anything you say. If the person is open to understanding, it makes sense to give them the straight dope, so to speak. The real message is: All things alive today evolved from some earlier form that may or may not have looked like what you see today. Humans and chimps evolved from an ancestor that may have looked more chimp-like than human-like, but it wasn’t either a chimp or a human and almost certainly didn’t look exactly like either. (Actually, we know it didn’t look like a human. We don’t have any chimp ancestor fossils older than about 500k years, so we don’t know much what their ancestors looked like. The human fossils we have from around 5 or 6M years are very fragmentary and pretty controversial, too.) ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/48 "2007-10-26T20:27:10Z")
well actually he’s my fiance and we’ve date for 6 years and we hottly debate and mostly disagree on everything from religion to politics.. BUT he likes debating with me… so i don’t have to worry about getting dumped 🙂 [QUOTE=hotflungwok] Yeah, this is important. I’ve never met a person who both proclaimed that they did not believe in evolution and was actually willing to rationally discuss it. Challenging a belief like this might be a good way to get dumped if your bf is not the listening type. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/49 "2007-10-26T20:29:17Z")
[QUOTE=xxfireangel13xx] well actually he’s my fiance and we’ve date for 6 years and we hottly debate and mostly disagree on everything from religion to politics.. BUT he likes debating with me… so i don’t have to worry about getting dumped 🙂 [/QUOTE] If you join this MB, you’ll get enough help that you’ll be able to debate him like he was a little rag doll you could fling around with your pinky finger. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/50 "2007-10-26T20:31:42Z")
[QUOTE=xxfireangel13xx] I don’t think he does.. He used to but then he read this thing about the cambrian explosion and now I think he doesn’t.. he says it can’t be proven no matter what.. but its the cambrian explosion that really turned him..that’s what i’m trying to understand.. I just had forgotten the name of it when i oringally post this [/QUOTE] Can you give more information about which aspects of the Cambrian Explosion he takes issue with? Does he deny that it happened at all, or that it means what paleontologists say it means (specifically, it is thought that it represents the time when there were sufficient creatures with fosslizable hard parts, in sufficient population sizes, that fossils could now be found in statistically significant numbers – thus the seeming “explosion” in fossils)? Or is his issue something else entirely? ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/51 "2007-10-26T20:35:46Z")
Ok so now can someone explain to be the cambrian explosion? Or point me in the right direction…You people obviously know about this topic and I’ve tried researching and end up with nothing… i need help! ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/52 "2007-10-26T21:16:14Z")
[QUOTE=xxfireangel13xx] Ok so now can someone explain to be the cambrian explosion? Or point me in the right direction…You people obviously know about this topic and I’ve tried researching and end up with nothing… i need help! [/QUOTE] Wikipedia is probably as good a place to start as any: [entry for Cambrian Explosion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion). See also [here](http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Paleobiology/CambrianExplosion.htm). Essentially, that’s when, in the fossil record, we start to see all the major animal groups appearing for the first time. Furthermore, it all seemed to happen very quickly (geologically speaking; 100,000 years, for example, is a long time to us, but practically an instant in the expanse of geological time). The appearance, then, is one of “spontaneous creation”; however, appearances can be deceiving. The current scientific explanation is that it marks the period in evolution when fossilizable hard parts became much more common in a wider number of animal groups (we do have fossils which predate the Cambrian explosion), so all of a sudden you have a much more robust fossil record. Why the hard parts all of a sudden begin to show up is a matter of some controversy (discussed in the links above, but which can be clarified here if needed). ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/53 "2007-10-26T23:59:57Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] “Man didn’t evolve from apes” is simply not correct. If “not correct” isn’t “ignorance”, then we’re not speaking the same language. Do what you think works, but don’t come here and try to convince us that A is not A. [/QUOTE] Did you actually read my post? I’ve already agreed with your point multiple times. I’m trying to explain why using the word apes in response to that question, a question posed by someone who obviously does not understand evolution and may have simply been lied to about it, might further confuse things. Yes it can be explained, but you have to start a person like this out with simple things. Just jumping right into something they don’t understand is just going to push them away. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/54 "2007-10-27T03:08:28Z")
[QUOTE=hotflungwok] Did you actually read my post? I’ve already agreed with your point multiple times. I’m trying to explain why using the word apes in response to that question, a question posed by someone who obviously does not understand evolution and may have simply been lied to about it, might further confuse things. Yes it can be explained, but you have to start a person like this out with simple things. Just jumping right into something they don’t understand is just going to push them away. [/QUOTE] Yes, I read your post. I think you’re making it more complicated than it has to be. People aren’t stupid. If they actually want to understand the concept, they can. If they don’t, then it doesn’t matter what you say. ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/55 "2007-10-29T21:16:12Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Can you give more information about which aspects of the Cambrian Explosion he takes issue with? Does he deny that it happened at all, or that it means what paleontologists say it means (specifically, it is thought that it represents the time when there were sufficient creatures with fosslizable hard parts, in sufficient population sizes, that fossils could now be found in statistically significant numbers – thus the seeming “explosion” in fossils)? Or is his issue something else entirely? [/QUOTE] I think he just doesn’t understand why there’s tons of fossils from some time periods and then other time periods in between there is nothing or at least that is how a book he read described it. He read a book about the cambrian explosion.. and I read part of it… but the author of this book (i wish i could remember the name) basically said that it was a time when there were no fossils at all and made the claim that dinosaurs basically “appeared” out of nowhere. I thought it didn’t sound right so I read the “evidence” the author was using to prove his claim, and according to him it is proven by the cambrian explosion. I had never heard of the cambrian explosion before then. Now talking with you all, I’m beginning to think that this author may have not been the brightest crayon in the crayon box… ---
**Author:** ![xxfireangel13xx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/cab0a1/32.png) [@xxfireangel13xx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xxfireangel13xx)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/56 "2007-10-29T21:21:14Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Wikipedia is probably as good a place to start as any: [entry for Cambrian Explosion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion). See also [here](http://www.fossilmuseum.net/Paleobiology/CambrianExplosion.htm). Essentially, that’s when, in the fossil record, we start to see all the major animal groups appearing for the first time. Furthermore, it all seemed to happen very quickly (geologically speaking; 100,000 years, for example, is a long time to us, but practically an instant in the expanse of geological time). The appearance, then, is one of “spontaneous creation”; however, appearances can be deceiving. The current scientific explanation is that it marks the period in evolution when fossilizable hard parts became much more common in a wider number of animal groups (we do have fossils which predate the Cambrian explosion), so all of a sudden you have a much more robust fossil record. Why the hard parts all of a sudden begin to show up is a matter of some controversy (discussed in the links above, but which can be clarified here if needed). [/QUOTE] ok i checked out that link. It was very informative thanks! i’m going to have him read it.. this explains it a lot better than whatever book it was he was reading ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/57 "2007-10-31T04:27:51Z")
xxfire, you may also want to look at this blog entry: [http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/11/the\_cambrian\_as\_an\_evolutionar.php](http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/11/the_cambrian_as_an_evolutionar.php) The conclusion: > [@](#): > > One message from these data is that the Cambrian ‘explosion’ was real. It isn’t an artifact of poor sampling of ancient rocks—we have a range of good fossils from the period before, and it’s clear that the pre-Cambrian world was a different place than the post-Cambrian. > > But another important lesson, and one that creationists like to hide, is that while this was a sudden event in a geological sense, it wasn’t actually all that rapid in human terms. The evolution of the canonical Cambrian forms was drawn out over **tens of millions of years**. They didn’t just come out of nowhere, either; while individual lineages are cryptic, we see a slow aggregate increase in the complexity of multicellular animals in the fossil record that culminated in the flowering of large-animal diversity in the Cambrian. By the way, the material your boyfriend was reading, it wasn’t Kent Hovind, was it? I’ve heard him talk about the CE before, and there’s lots of material to show that Kent is a con man (such as the fact that he’s currently sitting in prison). ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/58 "2007-10-31T08:35:41Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] (such as the fact that he’s currently sitting in prison). [/QUOTE] Is he really? :eek: I missed that. Give me all the juicy details: why, when, how long? Or a link. Please? I’m not actually surprised that the fraud is in jail, just suprised I never heard about it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/59 "2007-10-31T09:14:19Z")
[QUOTE=Blake] Is he really? :eek: I missed that. Give me all the juicy details: why, when, how long? Or a link. Please? I’m not actually surprised that the fraud is in jail, just suprised I never heard about it. [/QUOTE] The Wiki page about him is a good starting point > **[Kent Hovind](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind#Legal_problems)** > > Kent E. Hovind\[a\] (born 1953) is an American young Earth creationist and tax protestor. His ministry focuses on denial of accepted scientific knowledge in the fields of biology (evolution and abiogenesis), geophysics, and cosmology in favor of a literalist interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative found in the Bible. Hovind's views, which combine elements of creation science and conspiracy theory, are dismissed by the scientific community as fringe theory and pseudo-scholarship. Answers ... ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860/60 "2007-10-31T09:29:07Z")
[QUOTE=Wikipedia] falsely declaring bankruptcy, making threats against federal officials, filing false complaints, failing to get necessary building permits, and various tax-related charges [/QUOTE] All the best Christian traits. 😉 Thanks for the heads up guys. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-dinosaurs/423860.md?page=2)