# Evolution and science... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 26, 2005, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979 "2005-02-26T05:18:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Twoflower](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/twoflower/32/22_2.png) [@Twoflower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twoflower)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/321 "2005-03-10T17:58:53Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Listen people, when debating with a Biblical creationist, it’s a mistake to allow it to move onto their “home turf”. They’re much happier arguing from their knowledge of the Bible than what passes for their knowledge of science. But whether one’s interpretation of Christian doctrine is correct is hardly relevent to whether there’s scientific evidence for evolution. Let’s get back to that. I see the change of topic as a tacit admission that he’s out of ammo on the science argument. And I actually find it fascinating that he’s being thoroughly pummelled on the religious argument as well – it’s reassuring to see evidence that creationists aren’t just religious fanatics, but are truly delusional. Gives me hope that reason will eventually prevail. ---
**Author:** ![Aagramn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Aagramn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aagramn)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/322 "2005-03-10T18:20:32Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Sure, whatever. Doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter to me, and doesn’t undermine your argument at all, but it’s the sort of thing a creationist would be likely to nitpick. Your argument is a good one because it’s simple enough to be understood quickly. A creationist is unlikely to invest a lot of time and effort trying to comprehend a technical matter they instinctively disagree with. Another simple argument which undermines creationism is the geological column. If all the sediments were laid down in a global flood, burying all the creatures that became fossils, why aren’t all the species jumbled together? Why, for example, do we always find all of the trillobites lower down than we do dinosaurs, regardless of where we look in the world? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/323 "2005-03-10T18:25:42Z")
> [@Twoflower](#): > > And I actually find it fascinating that he’s being thoroughly pummelled on the religious argument as well … Moreso, it seems. There are actually some people in the US who agree with his “science” but NOBODY agrees with his “Christianity.” ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/324 "2005-03-10T18:59:20Z")
Sorry, Sqweels, but the “theology stuff” is _kinda_ relevant. This all started in the “Drunken Noah” Comments thread where Nolies said that fermentation didn’t come into existence until after the Flood, and I brought up the fact that the Bible says that God created everything at the beginning, so that would have included yeasts. And Nolies went, “Nuh- **uhhhh** …” And started preachin’ about the Bible and the eeeee-vils of evolution. And Dex told him to take the witnessing to GD. In a nutshell. So here we all are. 😃 * * * > [@](#): > > \*\*You can’t use Paul to support what was going on before he even entered the picture. \*\* ??? You have some mighty peculiar ideas about Bible study, Nolies. So, you’re saying that we can’t use any of Paul’s writings to discuss anything that happened before he “entered the picture”? Then, that means that we basically can’t use any of Paul’s writings to discuss ANY of the following basic Christian doctrines (from [here](http://www.carm.org/doctrine/basicdoc.htm) ). > [@](#): > > # There is only one God - Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9 > > # There are no Gods before or after God - Isaiah 43:10 > > # God knows all things - 1 John 3:20 > > # God is all powerful - Psalm 115:3 > > # God is everywhere - Jer. 23:23,24 > > # God is sovereign - Zech. 9:14; 1 Tim. 6:15-16 > > # God is spirit - John 4:24 > > # God created all that exists - Gen. 1:1; Isaiah 44:24 > > # Spirit does not have a body of flesh and bones - Luke 24:39 > > # God has always been God - Psalm 90:2 > > # Jesus is God - John 1:1,14; 10:30-33; 20:28; Col. 2:9; Phil. 2:5-8; Heb. 1:8 > > # Jesus is the only way to God the Father - John 14:6; Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22 > > # The Holy Spirit is God - Acts 5:3-4 > > # The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is alive - Acts 13:2 > > # Adam and Eve were real people - Gen. 3:20; 5:1; 1 Tim. 2:13 > > # Sin separates us from God - Isaiah 59:2 > > # Jesus rose from the dead in His physical body - John 2:19-21 > > # Those who reject Jesus will go to Hell - Rev. 20:11-15 > > # Hell is a place of fiery punishment - Matt. 25:41; Rev. 19:20 > > # Hell is eternal - Matt. 25:46 > > # The unsaved go to hell forever - Rev. 21:8 > > # Jesus will return visibly to earth - Acts 1:11 > > # The damned will be thrown into a lake of fire - Rev. 20:15 > > # Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - Rev. 20:10 So, according to you, if we wanted to have a Bible study on the nature of God, or on the concept of “sin” or “the law”, we would not be allowed to use any Bible verses from Romans, I and II Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I and II Thessalonians, I and II Timothy, Titus, and Philemon, because the topics of “God” and “sin” and “the law” were all topics that came up long before Paul came on the scene. Nolies, part of what makes “scripture” …“scripture” is the fact that it all hangs together, and it’s all relevant to itself, and it’s all applicable. You can do a Bible study on the End Times using verses from all over the Bible, not just from Revelation. You can do a Bible study on the Creation using Bible verses from all over the Bible, not just from Genesis. When you say that you can’t use Paul to support Christian doctrines that came up for discussion before he changed from Saul into Paul, it’s just…dumb. > [@](#): > > \*\* Why is it that when Paul came to Jerusleum he followed the law, but when he was with his converts he didn’t? \*\* You lack a knowledge of early church history. The first few years were very confusing, with people not agreeing on whether Christians still had to uphold the Jewish law or not. It actually took about 300 years, altogether, for the Church to officially decide this. Thus, sometimes Paul observed the Law, and sometimes he didn’t. Things just hadn’t been decided yet. But now 1,700 years of Christian debate and discussion have finally laid down the central authoritative doctrine that no, Christians do not need to uphold the Jewish law. > [@](#): > > **Paul wrote that food sacrificed to idols is ok for a Christian to eat. The council said no it isn’t and Paul didn’t object to this and if you notice the converts were all zelous for the law. You see that you trying to use Romans, which Paul wrote, who was a minister to the Gentials shows you are confused and you have been studying the bible for quite some time…** No, I’m not the one who’s confused. **You’re** the one who doesn’t know anything about early church history. As I said, things were very confused and conflicted for a long time. > [@](#): > > **What did they spread the risen Christ, Acts 2 :38 You must repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins. Is that what Paul would or did say? no it isn’t.1 Corth 1 :17 For God did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel. How many churchs have split on these two verses which seem to contradict each other?** How many churches have split over these verses? None. Because these verses do not contradict each other. Peter: You must repent and be baptized. Paul: I’m not here to baptize people, I’m just here to preach. How are those two thoughts contradictory? It’s like when you’re sitting in the hospital emergency room, and a doctor walks in and says you’re going to need a shot, and then _another_ doctor walks in and says he’s not here to give you a shot, he’s just here to take your blood pressure. Those two things are not contradictory. > [@](#): > > **When you can’t just take the word at what it says in context you spiritualize everthing that way you can just ignore what it really says.** No. I’m not ignoring what it really says. That’s what it really says, Nolies. > [@](#): > > **Peter was saying that if you all repent the second coming will happen…** Yes, I know Peter believed this. **All** the early Christians expected Jesus to return any day. > [@](#): > > **I’m sure you agree that Jesus was God in the flesh. We know that God cannot lie. So with all your bible study how do you explain Jesus’s comments;** Many new Christians stumble over this apparent contradiction. There is one very logical explanation: That this statement–_"There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom_"–refers to a **spiritual** kingdom. > [@](#): > > \*\* It is clear that he is talking about his SECOND coming.\*\* No, that’s not clear at all. It’s only clear to Pre-Millennial Inerrantists who refuse to believe that in those statements there, He might have been talking about a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly, literal one. * * * The only non-porn hit that turns up on Google for “gentials” (as a spelling for “Gentiles”) is this one. [http://www.volconvo.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-332.html](http://www.volconvo.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-332.html) > [@](#): > > America right now is in a state of religious flux. The fact is despite the fact that there is seperation between church and state our nation is founded on Christain ideals. It’s part of our history and who we are as a nation (90 percent of Amercians are Gentials). Now within our own country though despite the fact that Gentials are the majority they are treated much more harshly. For instance recentally some public schools where forced to removed any Chirstain related objects, including pictures that depicted Jesus, because they where considered offensive. However, religios symbols and icons of other religions where allowed to stay. There are many other instances that have happened and are happening now in the US. We are a country that is in a sordid identity crisis because we want to make as many people as happy as we can but we also don’t want to lose what we are in the process. Friend of yours? ---
**Author:** ![Nolies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/45deac/32.png) [@Nolies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nolies)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/325 "2005-03-10T21:05:35Z")
QUOTE]There is one very logical explanation: That this statement–“There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom”–refers to a spiritual kingdom. Quote: It is clear that he is talking about his SECOND coming. No, that’s not clear at all. It’s only clear to Pre-Millennial Inerrantists who refuse to believe that in those statements there, He might have been talking about a spiritual kingdom, not an earthly, literal one. [/QUOTE] And you did exactly as I predicted. It means spiritual kingdom LOL you are foolish. In the verse preceeding he says coming with his angels in power. NOT SPRITUAL you need to twist that and I know it hurts you to admit that you don’t know. Why was there confusion in the early church? Paul said you do not need to be baptized to be saved. Peter said you need to be. How is that not a contradiction? Jesus said you need to follow the law the greater and the lesser things. Paul said NO you don’t have to follow it. Seem like a another contradiction Since you are unwilling to even admit that GOD promised Israel an earthly kingdom which would come through the messiah. It was a spiritual one, typical of an immature Christian who would believe that evolution is even remotely possible. Since you are just appeasing the world, trying to have your cake and eat it too. Be in the world but not of the world. You seem to think that there is some sort of scientific contradiction about creation 6,000 years ago. What should I expect? I would say that you need to call someone and see if you can provide even one schread of evidence to support your claim I know of a talk show host who would love to talk to you about this…I don’t know if this is breaking a rule but you can call him at 1-800-836-9278 5pm et til 5:30 he would love to talk to evolutionist. In fact he talked to one of the leading evolutionist and the evolutionist made up a lie to try to prove his position and was caught in it. This guy had been on night line and Nova purporting evolution as FACT. Needless to say it wasn’t much longer after that the guy hung up in embarrassment… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/326 "2005-03-10T21:22:29Z")
> [@Nolies](#): > > I would say that you need to call someone and see if you can provide even one schread of evidence to support your claim I know of a talk show host who would love to talk to you about this…I don’t know if this is breaking a rule but you can call him at 1-800-836-9278 5pm et til 5:30 he would love to talk to evolutionist. In fact he talked to one of the leading evolutionist and the evolutionist made up a lie to try to prove his position and was caught in it. This guy had been on night line and Nova purporting evolution as FACT. Needless to say it wasn’t much longer after that the guy hung up in embarrassment… Bob Enyart?! You want to claim Bob ENYART caught an EVOLUTIONIST in a lie?! There’s enough misinformation just on his [past shows](http://www.kgov.com/) list on the front page of his site to bury any alleged lies told by any alleged evolutionist on any alleged radio “news” show ever… ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/327 "2005-03-10T22:15:51Z")
**Nolies** , you’re been leaning way over toward the “not acceptable” use of insulting language for several posts, now, treading very close to violating our “Don’t be a jerk” rule, but your statement that > [@](#): > > LOL you are foolish is a direct violation of our board rules. Do not do this again. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/328 "2005-03-10T22:18:14Z")
Jayjay, it could just have been that an evolutionist caller got some of the science wrong, and Enyart decided to crow about it as a “gotcha”. * * * Well, I called the 800 number, and it was answered “Denver Bible Church”, which is apparently Bob Enyart’s church, [http://denverbiblechurch.org/](http://denverbiblechurch.org/) and I had a nice conversation with a very nice lady who didn’t know what an Internet message board was, but who did admit to having heard of the Internet. She told me all about Bob Enyart’s website [http://www.kgov.com/](http://www.kgov.com/) > [@](#): > > **Paul said you do not need to be baptized to be saved. Peter said you need to be. How is that not a contradiction?** I already explained this. Twice. You weren’t paying attention, because your mind is closed. I’ll try it once more, just for posterity’s sake: _There was a lot of confusion during the first 300 years of Christianity. It took a long time for the doctrine to shake down, and for people to agree on what was important and what wasn’t. Until that time, yes, there were disagreements._ Question: What does Pastor Enyart say about your “contradiction”? > [@](#): > > **Jesus said you need to follow the law the greater and the lesser things. Paul said NO you don’t have to follow it.** You betray a deep lack of understanding of how the whole “law vs. grace” doctrine thing works. Question: How does Pastor Enyart resolve your “contradiction”? > [@](#): > > **Since you are unwilling to even admit that GOD promised Israel an earthly kingdom which would come through the messiah.** Okay, Nolies, you seem to be absolutely determined to have Jesus speaking literally in Matthew 16: let’s try it your way, let’s think about this–say He was speaking literally, that He was promising an earthly, concrete kingdom that would come **before those people He was talking to just then had died.** This would mean that if Jesus was speaking in 33 A.D., and if the average age of the people around him was, say, 20, and the average life span was 70, that He would have come back, bodily, surrounded by angels, to reward people, sometime before 83 A.D., more or less. Say by 100 A.D. definitely. **SO WHERE IS HE???** Did I miss the memo? Was it some kind of private Second Coming, by invitation only? If you are right, and Jesus was speaking of a literal bodily return to set up His earthly kingdom before those people had “tasted death”, He should have come back **1900 years ago.** So, what say you? Did He? Or didn’t He? Or, is your point not that Jesus was speaking literally, but rather that He was lying? Is that what you’re trying to prove here? That this apparent “contradiction” means that Jesus was a liar? If you think Jesus was a liar, then you’re not a Christian. So what are you? Are you a Christian or not? > [@](#): > > \*\*I would say that you need to call someone and see if you can provide even one schread of evidence to support your claim \*\* There are seven pages of evidence right here in this thread, including a number of questions that people have put to you that you have not answered. For starters, what about the sedimentation in the Grand Canyon? If that was due to a single Noahic flood, why are the fossils in separate layers instead of all jumbled up together? If it was because some of them were different sizes and so they settled out at different times, then the heavier ones should be at the bottom, and the smaller, lighter ones should be at the top. But that’s not how they’re arranged. And that’s not an “opinion”, Nolies, that’s a **fact**. The fossils are arranged such-and-such. That is a fact. > [@](#): > > \*\*…typical of an immature Christian who would believe that evolution is even remotely possible. \*\* I see that you still haven’t taken my point about appearing immature and rude and sneering at people. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2005, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/329 "2005-03-10T23:01:36Z")
Jeeeeeepers. :eek: Browsing around on Denver Bible Church’s website, check out the “Hydroplate Earth”. [http://denverbiblechurch.org/creation/hydroplate.html](http://denverbiblechurch.org/creation/hydroplate.html) > [@](#): > > At Denver Bible Church, we teach Dr. Walt Brown’s Hydroplate Theory as the best understanding of Noah’s Flood, geology and the relevant scriptures. On Day Two of creation, God formed the crust of the earth, the firmament, miles above a massive subterranean ocean. “Thus God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament,” (Gen. 1:7). The global flood began when these “fountains of the great deep were broken up,” (Gen. 7:11). Dr. Brown’s book, In the Beginning, demonstrates powerfully that the world’s major geologic features flow logically from these initial conditions. But some creationists who disagree point out that, “God called the firmament Heaven” (Gen. 1:8), claiming that this firmament must be either the atmosphere (Morris) or outer space (Humphreys). Egad. [Hydroplate Theory.](http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/HydroplateOverview2.html) That’s a new one for me. Oh, and Poly: Good call on “Darby” and Dispensationalism. > [@](#): > > In 1999, the elders and pastor of Denver’s Derby Bible Church ordained Bob into the ministry. In 2000, Derby planted Denver Bible Church with Bob as pastor. Derby Bible Church doesn’t have a website, but they’re listed under “Denver Churches”. [http://www.biblicalanswers.com/Churches.htm](http://www.biblicalanswers.com/Churches.htm) This is where Nolies is coming from on “the law and grace” and “Christ’s gospel” and “Paul’s gospel” and “Peter’s gospel”. [http://www.biblicalanswers.com/Articles/Christians%20and%20the%20Law.htm](http://www.biblicalanswers.com/Articles/Christians%20and%20the%20Law.htm) Statement of faith: [http://denverbiblechurch.org/docs\sof.html](http://denverbiblechurch.org/docs%5Csof.html) Starts with the Nicene Creed, then (perhaps significantly) stops just before it gets to “We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church” (which it omits) and then inserts this: > [@](#): > > The Bible records the true history of man including that God created the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six literal days; only eight people survived a global flood; through great wonders God delivered Israel from Egypt; the prophets, Christ, and the apostles performed many supernatural miracles. > > The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, in their original state, are the inspired Word of God. Well, that gives us some insight on where Nolies is coming from, I guess. Other fascinating stuff on Pastor Enyart’s website: Well, there’s the “New Testament Support for Executing Scott Peterson”: > [@](#): > > Some Christians reject the death penalty for Scott Peterson on the grounds that: > > · Jesus repealed eye-for-an-eye punishment Um, yeah, works for me. But apparently Pastor Enyart feels that Jesus wasn’t looking at the Big Picture, especially when it comes to the cost to taxpayers: > [@](#): > > If given life in prison, as punishment the government would feed, clothe, educate, medicate, entertain, and legally represent him for the rest of his life. Laci’s family would pay taxes in part, to keep Peterson comfortable, warm in winter and cool in summer. Bottom line: It’s cheaper to kill him. Oy. P.S. I read Chapter 1 of [“The Plot”](http://kgov.com/docs/ThePlot/ThePlotEnglish01.html), Enyart’s magnum opus, and realized that this _also_ is where Nolies is coming from: > [@](#): > > Kepler would never have discovered truths in physics and astronomy if he had handled apparent contradictions the way many Christians do¾by glibly explaining them away. Bible students must face difficulties squarely. If a solid resolution to a problem text does not readily appear, then rather than accept a foolish solution, the good student will acknowledge that he has a difficulty he cannot solve. Nolies doesn’t want to hear my “glib” explanations. He wants me to **admit** , “Yeah, boy, that sure is one heckuva contradiction you spotted there.” Only if I admit this will he believe that I am truly a Christian. Golly. And P.P.S. May I say how supremely ironic I find it that Enyart’s “hero”, for keeping his eyes open and only believing what he could prove himself, is Kepler. > [@](#): > > Men prefer to reject data, even from a credible source such as Scripture, rather than re-evaluate a long-held belief. The world needs more Keplers. Not many people reconsider a presupposition even after confronting the strongest contrary evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Nolies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/45deac/32.png) [@Nolies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nolies)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/330 "2005-03-11T00:01:06Z")
DDG you didn’t provide any evidence. If you have a child and you say that we are going to the fair next week. Well during that next week the child is disobedient so you decide that even thought you promised to go to the fair you aren’t going to do it. God can do the same thing. Israel rejected the risen Christ Acts 4 1 And as they spake unto the people, the priests, and the captain of the temple, and the Sadducees, came upon them, For the next Chapters the leaders of Israel are persecuting the Apostles. Then they stoned Stephen and Steven said I see the Lord standing at the right hand of God. Jesus stood in judgment of Israel and that is when he went to Paul. Now Paul enters the picture and he teaches Grace not the Law which causes the confusion. The original 12 new the law in fact Jesus had to show that to Peter now the law didn’t apply and sent him Cornelius house after the object lesson of the food on the blanket remember that one. That didn’t happen until Paul came along. So now that he decided to CUT OFF Israel, you know that stuff Paul wrote about in Romans. There was no need for Jesus to return and give the disobedient Jews their kingdom. So he didn’t return as planned. God is like that he can change his plans if he wants to. Jeremiah 18-6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. 7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; 8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. 9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; 10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, **then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.** And you think you know so much…it is obvious why he didn’t return as he said since Israel did evil in his sight. Israel’s leaders rejected their risen messiah so they don’t get the kingdom in which their king would rule the earth. Doesn’t it bother you that you have been studying the bible, though I believe it was more of an academic exercise for you than a desire to know God better and you never even saw that obvious change and why it happened? BTW follow this link and you can listen to someone who is suppose to be a great sceptic and a debunker and a believer in science deny the very existance of the laws of phyics. Listen to him try to dodge the nose on his face and make up stuff…[Scientific American Editor Michael Shermer](http://kgovarchives.com/bel/2003/20030828-BEL171.mp3) It is really funny since this guy is one of you all and the best you can muster… Call Bob again he is a great guy and would love to open your eyes… ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/331 "2005-03-11T00:24:42Z")
> [@Nolies](#): > > Call Bob again he is a great guy and would love to open your eyes… “There are none so blind as they who will not see.” For the last time, Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, said what were the most important things to do, how to implement them, and what to avoid doing. It’s all in the Gospels. In detail. Repeated over and over again. He also indicated how one would know that people was His disciples: that they love one another. **DDG** has been a dear and loyal friend to me for going on six years now. **Siege** is my sister in spirit. **Triskadecamus** and **Liberal** I am indebted to forever for their generosity, both of spirit and in material ways. And I could continue that list with several other people. These are people I know to be His followers, by their love. You show up here, intent on preaching Creationism as the One True Faith, Darbyan Dispensationalism that would dismiss Jesus’s teachings in favor of Paul’s legalism (though I was wryly amused, given a discussion a couple of years ago about Paul’s likely having “been in the closet,” to find him reaching out to the _gentials_ ;)). And start calling all of us names, both contrary to board rules and to courteous behavior. You, sir, are no Christian. You are the purveyor of a false Gospel, and a Nicolaitan. I denounce your teaching, here and now. God nonetheless loves you, and will forgive you. Seek to know Him, not in the teachings of “Pastor Bob,” but in the peace and tranquility of the world He created, and caused to flourish and bring forth a rich bounty, by methods science has been able to document. Read Jesus’s own words, and let them convict you. You will be immensely the richer for the experience. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/332 "2005-03-11T00:41:19Z")
> [@Nolies](#): > > BTW follow this link and you can listen to someone who is suppose to be a great sceptic and a debunker and a believer in science deny the very existance of the laws of phyics. > > Listen to him try to dodge the nose on his face and make up stuff…[Scientific American Editor Michael Shermer](http://kgovarchives.com/bel/2003/20030828-BEL171.mp3) Uh hunh. Was this the same one you refferred to as a prominent evolutionist? You should know that Shermer isn’t a biologist or a physicist: he’s a historian. I’d love to listen to the tape and see if it’s really what you claim it is… but couldn’t you just sum it up for us instead of making us listen to nearly an hour of a radio programe just to figure out which little bit you are talking about? > [@](#): > > It is really funny since this guy is one of you all and the best you can muster… Whatever dude. Again: not. even. a. biologist. How is that the “best” anyone can muster? It’s the evidence that we muster, not a celebrity endorsement. Then again, I think it probably far more likely that “Bob” is just a poor-man’s O’Reily who thinks he’s caught someone in a lie when in fact he’s just completely confused. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/333 "2005-03-11T00:50:29Z")
OMG, Bob is a ----moved to pit—. All he’s got is a bunch of random quotes about things still unexplained, or even gaps in the fossil record. OMG, not every single species fossilized. Plus, he’s just wrong. Rhipidistian fishes ARE known in the fossil record and they ARE ancestral to the earliest tetrapods. We have some AMAZING fossils showing this transition, and indeed most of the problem over the course of this transition is defining whether a given creature is either a fish or a tetrapod, because there are no clear distinctions to definitively set it on one side of the line or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/334 "2005-03-11T01:41:57Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > OMG, not every single species fossilized. Well, that was rude of them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/335 "2005-03-11T02:17:06Z")
As posted originally by **Duck Duck Goose** From the Statement of faith of the church in question as posted on this website - [denverbiblechurch.org](http://denverbiblechurch.org). > [@](#): > > “The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, **in their original state** [bold added], are the inspired Word of God.” Don’t you just love that modifier in bold? I thought the scripture of the Old Testament in its original state was oral. How in the world are we ever to recover that so that we know what to believe and what not ot believe? ---
**Author:** ![Nolies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/45deac/32.png) [@Nolies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nolies)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/336 "2005-03-11T03:30:42Z")
Well Poly man, Here at the DOPE disspelling ignorance. Jesus was asked which of the commandments was the greatest. He said Love the Lord with all your heart your mind and your soul, and love your neighbor as your self. These two sum up the law and the prophets. Now we know he was talking about the TEN commandments. SO we look at the first THREE commandments and they are laws towards GOD, **He said Love the Lord with all your heart your mind and your soul,** then the last SIX are laws of man towards man. **and love your neighbor as yourself.** You don’t want someone to steal from you, don’t steal from them. DO unto other as you would have done unto yourself. The fourth commandment was symbolic law for Israel. Not that hard to figure out really but you just have to want to know but you do like DDG and spiritualize it so you can make it mean what you want… But liberals and superficial christians twist it to mean that if you are a nice person and accept the sin of your neighbor and be nice to him that is showing your a Christian cause you are loving your neighbor. Loving them right to hell all right. He wasn’t changing anything but since you haven’t taken the time to actually study the bible you get lost and use the bible for promoting tolerance and diversity… If any of you believe that you can prove evolution and believe that Mr Enyart is a fool call his show, you know the time and it is a toll free number. He will be glad to talk to you and I will be glad to listen to you stumble on your supposed evidences. It will be your chance to reach thousands of dopes and disspell ignorance on a much greater scale. Mr Enyart is very well read and if one of you biologist think you can do better than Scientific American Editor Michael Shermer call him up and prove it…Listen to the show it ia only about 40 min long once shermer started making up stuff he got flustered and wouldn’t stay on the subject I was funny I have listened to it a couple of times it is like a good Monty phyton skit…LOL He is the editor of Scintific American who denies the the laws of phyics so he won’t loose a point…LOL ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/337 "2005-03-11T03:37:28Z")
First three and last six? Doesn’t that add up to nine? Having Shermer as a member of the SDMB would be really cool, by the way. I’d pay for him, and James Randi and Martin Gardner. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/338 "2005-03-11T04:03:37Z")
> [@Nolies](#): > > Well Poly man, > > Here at the DOPE disspelling ignorance. Jesus was asked which of the commandments was the greatest. He said Love the Lord with all your heart your mind and your soul, and love your neighbor as your self. These two sum up the law and the prophets. > > Now we know he was talking about the TEN commandments. SO we look at the first THREE commandments and they are laws towards GOD, **He said Love the Lord with all your heart your mind and your soul,** then the last SIX are laws of man towards man. **and love your neighbor as yourself.** You don’t want someone to steal from you, don’t steal from them. DO unto other as you would have done unto yourself. The fourth commandment was symbolic law for Israel. > > Not that hard to figure out really but you just have to want to know but you do like DDG and spiritualize it so you can make it mean what you want… > > But liberals and superficial christians twist it to mean that if you are a nice person and accept the sin of your neighbor and be nice to him that is showing your a Christian cause you are loving your neighbor. Loving them right to hell all right. > > He wasn’t changing anything but since you haven’t taken the time to actually study the bible you get lost and use the bible for promoting tolerance and diversity… > > If any of you believe that you can prove evolution and believe that Mr Enyart is a fool call his show, you know the time and it is a toll free number. He will be glad to talk to you and I will be glad to listen to you stumble on your supposed evidences. It will be your chance to reach thousands of dopes and disspell ignorance on a much greater scale. Mr Enyart is very well read and if one of you biologist think you can do better than Scientific American Editor Michael Shermer call him up and prove it…Listen to the show it ia only about 40 min long once shermer started making up stuff he got flustered and wouldn’t stay on the subject I was funny I have listened to it a couple of times it is like a good Monty phyton skit…LOL > > He is the editor of Scintific American who denies the the laws of phyics so he won’t loose a point…LOL I have better things to do with my life. Like trying to show compassion for some of the people you’d send to Hell. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/339 "2005-03-11T04:19:01Z")
On further examination, Nolies’ math does in fact add up if you make the special effort to parse the clunky text and righteous indignation. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979/340 "2005-03-11T04:19:29Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > First three and last six? > > Doesn’t that add up to nine? It appears to be **nolies** ’ belief that the 4th Commandment (Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy, IIRC) isn’t valid for anyone other than the Jews. Don’t really know why. Possibly to justify the shift of ‘God’s day’ to Sunday, rather than Saturday? Another idea - Jesus seemed to have a downer on the idea of not working on the Sabbath in certain contexts - see Matthew 12. **Nolies** , are you aware that many of the opinions that you hold, eg this one on the meaning of Mark 12, your belief in predestination, your belief in the importance of literalist 6-day creation and a young earth, are minority ones within Christianity as a whole and even within modern Protestantism? Are all the other Christians wrong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-and-science/291979.md?page=18)