# Evolution back in Georgia **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889 "2004-02-06T19:55:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/1 "2004-02-06T19:55:38Z")
Well, sort of anyway. [Here is the obligatory link.](http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/breaking_news/7882570.htm) > [@](#): > > ATLANTA - The thinking of Georgia’s top school official has apparently evolved. > > Six days after her plan to remove the word “evolution” from Georgia’s science curriculum became public, state schools Superintendent Kathy Cox announced Thursday that she was scrapping the idea altogether. Although from what I understand, the education regarding the theory of evolution is still pretty dismal. In any event, [here’s a petition for Georgia, to get them to adopt a proper study of evolution.](http://www.petitiononline.com/gasci04/) ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/2 "2004-02-06T20:33:21Z")
Now now **Meatros** , why don’t you just let the good people of Georgia call “evolution” whatever they want to call “evolution”. After all “biological changes through time” is what evolution is. Heck, I don’t want to say " mind your own business" but it would be nice if you would let the Georgians run Georgia. I wonder…Why did you post the petition to the Georgia Board of Education regarding matters pertinent to the state of Georgia in your opening proposition page? Did you want nosy northerners and ilegal aliens to sign it? Surely you didn’t post this non-debate thread just to point out how backwards the Georgians are,…of course not. Did you? ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/3 "2004-02-06T21:23:42Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Heck, I don’t want to say " mind your own business" but it would be nice if you would let the Georgians run Georgia. Or perhaps he realizes that we all have a stake in the education of our children, or that ignorance like this needs to be fought on principle. There is no practical reason for changing the terms used in the curriculum. This school official was clearly pandering to a creationist constituency, and I for one am glad that this silly notion has been brought to light where it can be laughed at. If this idea can not withstand national scrutiny, better that it die. Ideas that are only workable if no one knows about them are seldom good for anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Uncivil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ccd318/32.png) [@Uncivil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncivil)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/4 "2004-02-06T21:34:59Z")
I find it hard to belive any evolution occurs in Georgia. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/5 "2004-02-06T22:05:49Z")
Well now **Stonebow** , that’s a nice platitude about the little Georgia kiddies being the concern of folks everywhere, but being kind like you are, you completely missed the point. The individual states that make up the United States have mores that differ from state to state, and these different understandings of life must be left to the particular determinations set by that particular state. This is called a Republic. You see **Stonebow** , each individual state was meant to be an experimental unit of progressive governmental methods that could elvolve through time towards even better ideas of democratic government. And if you and **Meatros** and other people who consider themselves a bit smarter than the Georgians when it comes to the children of Georgia, then you are messing up the neat system set up by the founding fathers and are underminding the spirit of our Constitution. Now you wouldn’t want to do that, would you? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/6 "2004-02-06T22:15:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _Stonebow wrote:_ > This school official was clearly pandering to a creationist constituency That’s not how I interpreted it. I thought she was trying to pull a fast one on a largely creationist constituency. Teach the kids the correct science, but don’t let momma and daddy know that you’re really learnin 'em evolution. It was an interesting idea I thought, but probably not the one I would have actually settled on. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/7 "2004-02-06T22:23:24Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Well now **Stonebow** , that’s a nice platitude about the little Georgia kiddies being the concern of folks everywhere, but being kind like you are, you completely missed the point. The individual states that make up the United States have mores that differ from state to state, and these different understandings of life must be left to the particular determinations set by that particular state. This is called a Republic. > > You see **Stonebow** , each individual state was meant to be an experimental unit of progressive governmental methods that could elvolve through time towards even better ideas of democratic government. And if you and **Meatros** and other people who consider themselves a bit smarter than the Georgians when it comes to the children of Georgia, then you are messing up the neat system set up by the founding fathers and are underminding the spirit of our Constitution. > > Now you wouldn’t want to do that, would you? Ah! _That’s_ why there are still white restrooms and black restrooms and white water fountains and black waterfountains and white schools and black schools all through the South! How silly of me to think they’d disappeared! Of course, if one _wants_ the southern states’ children to become eligible for remedial biology when they get to college, I guess this would be the proper way to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/8 "2004-02-06T22:30:46Z")
**Milum** - I understand the principle involved. I also support it in most cases. However, I don’t accept ‘states’ rights’ as trumping all other considerations, as you do. I’m going into this assuming that this is a pandering to creationists, and is simply the first move in an effort to push Intelligent Design, Young Earth Creationism, or other theories as being just as valid as evolution, and the prelude to a demand for ‘equal time’ in classrooms. I could be wrong in that. **CurtC** brought up a plausible alternative, though I don’t believe that to be the motivation here. ---
**Author:** ![Uncivil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ccd318/32.png) [@Uncivil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncivil)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/9 "2004-02-06T22:42:30Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Well now **Stonebow** , that’s a nice platitude about the little Georgia kiddies being the concern of folks everywhere, but being kind like you are, you completely missed the point. The individual states that make up the United States have mores that differ from state to state, and these different understandings of life must be left to the particular determinations set by that particular state. This is called a Republic. > > You see **Stonebow** , each individual state was meant to be an experimental unit of progressive governmental methods that could elvolve through time towards even better ideas of democratic government. And if you and **Meatros** and other people who consider themselves a bit smarter than the Georgians when it comes to the children of Georgia, then you are messing up the neat system set up by the founding fathers and are underminding the spirit of our Constitution. > > Now you wouldn’t want to do that, would you? Invoking the constitution isn’t much of an argument in my opinion. It isn’t a sacred document, it contains a mix of good and bad ideas. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/10 "2004-02-06T23:06:15Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Now now **Meatros** , why don’t you just let the good people of Georgia call “evolution” whatever they want to call “evolution”. After all “biological changes through time” is what evolution is. Perhaps because “biological changes through time” is _not_ equivalent to “evolution”. Development, for example, is a “biological change through time”. Ecological succession is a “biological change through time”. Heck, even the progress of a disease in an organism is a “biological change through time”. Evolution, in its essence, however, pertains to the changes in allele frequencies through time. A very specific _kind_ of biological change. By altering the curriculum such that “evolution” is replaced with the non-equivalent phrase “biological changes through time”, it is entirely conceivable that the latter could very well be taught with nary a mention of anything resembling evolution; the exclusion of true evolutionary subject matter from biology classes could still be justified on the basis that other forms of biological change _were_ being taught, in keeping with the letter of the law. ID could also be allowed, since ID is just biological changes with divine assistance. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2004, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/11 "2004-02-06T23:56:27Z")
Actually, our friend, Millum, is correct in this instance. If I understand the argument here. The feds certainly have no business messing with the education system in Georgia. If they want to withold funds or decertify schools or some such thing, then maybe they would be in the right. But if the people of the great state of Georgia want to teach their own brand of evolution, then it is perfectly within their rights to do so. Those favoring a federal intrusion in this matter, as in a civil rights case, I’d like to hear the legal and constitutional argument to support it. Now, if you want to ask me my opinion of the idea of teaching this stuff: I think it’s just plain stupid to teach psuedo-science in our schools. But, as the link explains, the idea was scrapped anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/12 "2004-02-07T00:00:03Z")
I can’t believe it **doublejay** , you equate the practice of **segregation** with the rescinded proposal of a word change in Georgia? No wonder folks down south think you people dumb. Look, I privately think that that _squench_ Superintendent of Education in Georgia was just caught singing the fairyland mantra of the unseemly Politically Correct, that is, the foolish idea that the world can be changed by simply changing a few of the distasteful words that offend. But then again, this is nobody’s business but the people over in the lovely but unloved Peach State of Georgia. By the way\*\* jayjay\*\*, I think you are wrong in saying that the Georgia kids might need remedial studies in biology when they reach college. Most of the kids in Georgia have had a hands-on knowledge of biology ever since they became old enough to milk a cow or slop a hog. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/13 "2004-02-07T00:12:57Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > I can’t believe it **doublejay** , you equate the practice of **segregation** with the rescinded proposal of a word change in Georgia? No wonder folks down south think you people dumb. No, I equate the mushmoufed idea that just _anything_ can be covered by a hands-off states’ rights mantra with segregation (ooh, look! Shiny!). > [@Milum](#): > > By the way\*\* jayjay\*\*, I think you are wrong in saying that the Georgia kids might need remedial studies in biology when they reach college. Most of the kids in Georgia have had a hands-on knowledge of biology ever since they became old enough to milk a cow or slop a hog. Yes. Unfortunately, if evolution is not taught, the foundation for all that animal husbandry experience (and modern biology in general) will be pretty much unknown by Georgia students. It’s nice to know that screws are better fasteners than nails in most situations, but knowing WHY they’re better than nails will let you extrapolate unfamiliar carpentry/cabinetry/home repair situations much better. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/14 "2004-02-07T00:24:29Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Now now **Meatros** , why don’t you just let the good people of Georgia call “evolution” whatever they want to call “evolution”. After all “biological changes through time” is what evolution is. Read the link. Removing the word “evolution” is just the change the caught the headlines. Even though that change has been rescinded, the curriculum is still gutted of many important concepts. > [@Milum](#): > > Heck, I don’t want to say " mind your own business" but it would be nice if you would let the Georgians run Georgia. So nobody has any right to get involved in anything outside their own state? Well, this Georgia resident is grateful of all help to change the minds of our idiot state “leaders”. I don’t know how this point got translated into Federal involvement later in the thread. The petition is open to individuals. > [@](#): > > I wonder…Why did you post the petition to the Georgia Board of Education regarding matters pertinent to the state of Georgia in your opening proposition page? Did you want nosy northerners and ilegal aliens to sign it? Yes please. Anyone concerned at the willful miseducation of children is welcome to sign, wherever they live. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/15 "2004-02-07T01:41:59Z")
Fair enough **John Mace** , and how refreshing **Stonebow** , to hear your moderating words so nicely spoken. But **Darwin’s Finch** , don’t be mad, but I must question your understanding of words and evolution… > [@](#): > > **Darwin’s Finch** : "Perhaps because “biological changes through time” is not equivalent to “evolution”. Development, for example, is a “biological change through time”. Ecological succession is a “biological change through time”. Heck, even the progress of a disease in an organism is a “biological change through time”. > > Evolution, in its essence, however, pertains to the changes in allele frequencies through time. A very specific kind of biological change. By altering the curriculum such that “evolution” is replaced with the non-equivalent phrase “biological changes through time”, it is entirely conceivable that the latter could very well be taught with nary a mention of anything resembling evolution;…" So then does… _allele frequency changes throught time = evoloution._ Of course not. The term “evolution” is a proccess that is still being uncovered and there are many ways in which it is understood by different evolutionists. Unconfortably, some aspects of the process are “mutually exclusives” and are being taught differently in different colleges in different states. To which, \*\*Mr. D Finch \*\*would you apply the term “Evolution”? Now for your edification… Does evolution exist in a vacuum? Would it be proper to say that the envelope of gasses that envelop the earth is a necessary part of human evolution. Of course. Now would it also be fair to say that laws and cultural rules that direct human behavior are central components of human evolution? Well they are, and it is my dollar-to-a-doughnut bet that **Darwin’s Finch** will say that they are not; and therefore he will single-handedly prove my point that people from other states should not try to impose their conceptions of reality on people until they realize that they too have dogmas that are hidden from their own self-assured open-mindedness by virtue of the rightness of the way that they look at things. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/16 "2004-02-07T01:51:57Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > Fair enough **John Mace** , and how refreshing **Stonebow** , to hear your moderating words so nicely spoken. But **Darwin’s Finch** , don’t be mad, but I must question your understanding of words and evolution… > > So then does… > > _allele frequency changes throught time = evoloution._ > > Of course not. The term “evolution” is a proccess that is still being uncovered and there are many ways in which it is understood by different evolutionists. Unconfortably, some aspects of the process are “mutually exclusives” and are being taught differently in different colleges in different states. > To which, \*\*Mr. D Finch \*\*would you apply the term “Evolution”? > > Now for your edification… > > Does evolution exist in a vacuum? Would it be proper to say that the envelope of gasses that envelop the earth is a necessary part of human evolution. > > Of course. > > Now would it also be fair to say that laws and cultural rules that direct human behavior are central components of human evolution? > > Well they are, and it is my dollar-to-a-doughnut bet that **Darwin’s Finch** will say that they are not; and therefore he will single-handedly prove my point that people from other states should not try to impose their conceptions of reality on people until they realize that they too have dogmas that are hidden from their own self-assured open-mindedness by virtue of the rightness of the way that they look at things. It truly is amazing how much you can write without actually saying anything. WHAT are the competing theories of evolution you push out there so vaguely? Culture has nothing to do with human physical evolution. Cultures are too short-term to have any effect on physical evolution. There is such a thing as cultural evolution, but cultural evolution doesn’t demand some sort of Trekkian Prime Directive that prohibits cultural contamination. And with the speed and growing presence of worldwide communication, cultural contamination is becoming impossible to avoid. So…what’s your point again? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/17 "2004-02-07T02:26:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* jayjay: \*\*“Culture has nothing to do with human physical evolution. Cultures are too short-term to have any effect on physical evolution.” \*\* 🙂🙂 **jayjay** , you sweet wonderful magnificent narrow stereotypical yankee. 🙂 🙂 You owe me a donut! 🙂 Mnnnnnnnnnnn…KISS\*\* :smack: 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/18 "2004-02-07T02:34:53Z")
And again we venture into Looneyland with **Milum**. That was…bizarre. And slightly disturbing… ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/19 "2004-02-07T04:07:14Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > But **Darwin’s Finch** , don’t be mad, but I must question your understanding of words and evolution… I’m thinking you need to put those stones away, given what is to come… > [@](#): > > So then does… > > _allele frequency changes throught time = evoloution._ > Of course not. Maybe not “evoloution”, but certainly _evolution_. > [@](#): > > The term “evolution” is a proccess that is still being uncovered and there are many ways in which it is understood by different evolutionists. Unconfortably, some aspects of the process are “mutually exclusives” and are being taught differently in different colleges in different states. > To which, \*\*Mr. D Finch \*\*would you apply the term “Evolution”? It would seem it is you who has little grasp of what evolution is, based on the above…whatever it is. “Mutually exclusives”? What the heck are you taking about? As for it being taught differently in different colleges in different states…uh…so? _Physics_ is taught differently in different colleges in different states. It’s taught differently by different instructors in the _same_ college, for that matter. However, any decent physics, or evolutionary biology, course still touch upon the same basic themes. If a physics instructor taught that cold fusion was valid, would you consider that program to be viable? > [@](#): > > Does evolution exist in a vacuum? Would it be proper to say that the envelope of gasses that envelop the earth is a necessary part of human evolution. > > Of course. > > Now would it also be fair to say that laws and cultural rules that direct human behavior are central components of human evolution? > > Well they are, and it is my dollar-to-a-doughnut bet that **Darwin’s Finch** will say that they are not; and therefore he will single-handedly prove my point that people from other states should not try to impose their conceptions of reality on people until they realize that they too have dogmas that are hidden from their own self-assured open-mindedness by virtue of the rightness of the way that they look at things. You have failed to edify me. You have, however, convinced me that you have no grasp of what you’re talking about. Different states now have different conceptions of reality which they are not allowed to impose upon one another? Where the hell did that come from? And please let me know when you are done arguing what you “bet” I would say, and what that “therefore” proves. I’m sure there’s a cornfield somewhere that needs that strawman more than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2004, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889/20 "2004-02-07T04:56:25Z")
> [@Milum](#): > > You see **Stonebow** , each individual state was meant to be an experimental unit of progressive governmental methods that could elvolve through time towards even better ideas of democratic government. And Georgia was intended in this experiment to be a “control” state in which idiots were in charge … along with Texas and California. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-back-in-georgia/227889.md?page=2)