# Evolution for Dummies and Christians: Simple, Powerful Points **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 7, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790 "2002-05-07T21:24:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![johndcal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@johndcal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/johndcal)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/1 "2002-05-07T21:24:21Z")
It’s just common sense: 1. The scientific community would not accept evolution unless it were soundly proved. As a theory, evolution (Darwin) is on par with plate tectonics and the Big Bang. If origins of species were not understood, science would say so, just as it does concerning black hole singularities, time before the Big Bang, and life on other planets. Science is not scheming against Christians. 2. Evolution has no baring on the existence of God, because He could easily have created a universe complex enough to allow evolution to proceed by natural law. The presence and manifestation of God in the universe are not nullified by evolution. 3. Almost everything is evolving according to natural law: from the expanding universe, to the death of stars, to the changing chemistry of the Earth’s atmosphere. Is life the only thing that doesn’t evolve by natural law – requiring the continual “tinker toying” of God? Evolution is a simple, elegant theory, supported by the vast majority of scientists, an extensive fossil record, genetics, geology, biology, microevolution (laboratory and natural), and of course, common sense. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/2 "2002-05-07T21:42:18Z")
Pssst! - Christians are not scheming against evolution. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/3 "2002-05-07T21:48:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by johndcal \* > \*\*It’s just common sense: \*\* Fallacy. It was common sense that the world was flat too… > [@](#): > > \*\* > > 1. The scientific community would not accept evolution unless it were soundly proved. As a theory, evolution (Darwin) is on par with plate tectonics and the Big Bang. If origins of species were not understood, science would say so, just as it does concerning black hole singularities, time before the Big Bang, and life on other planets. Science is not scheming against Christians. \*\* Fallacy. [Appeal to popularity](http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pop.htm) > [@](#): > > \*\* > 2. Evolution has no baring on the existence of God, because He could easily have created a universe complex enough to allow evolution to proceed by natural law. The presence and manifestation of God in the universe are not nullified by evolution. \*\* So. You just admitted that this has nothing to do with whether evolution happened or not. > [@](#): > > \*\* > 3. Almost everything is evolving according to natural law: from the expanding universe, to the death of stars, to the changing chemistry of the Earth’s atmosphere. Is life the only thing that doesn’t evolve by natural law – requiring the continual “tinker toying” of God? \*\* Fallacy. [False Analogy](http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm). The expanding universe and the death of stars have nothing to do with the theory of evolution. One could easily believe that the universe is billions of years old, started with a big bang and that God created all the species on earth as they are when the Earth was ready. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Evolution is a simple, elegant theory, supported by the vast majority of scientists, an extensive fossil record, genetics, geology, biology, microevolution (laboratory and natural), and of course, common sense. \*\* Majority of scientists? Fallacy, see above. Extensive fossil record? Maybe. Genetics, biology, microevolution. These are your strong points. But you don’t bring them up. You just throw fallacies around. Common sense. Fallacy. see above. [sub]N.B. I am not dismissing evolution. I am just taking the arguments presented apart.[/sub] Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/4 "2002-05-07T21:52:33Z")
Just wanted to say that as a Christian ‘non-dummy’ I was taught growing up that God created evolution. Carry on. We’ll get this room painted in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/5 "2002-05-07T21:58:22Z")
Ah screw it, I say we burn this asshole at the stake. ---
**Author:** ![dalovindj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/65b543/32.png) [@dalovindj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalovindj)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/6 "2002-05-07T22:08:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Just wanted to say that as a Christian ‘non-dummy’ I was taught growing up that God created evolution. Was any evidence offered to back this “lesson” up? In my experience most religious folks are of this type. They grew up being taught\* certain things so they now believe them to be true. I lived in Kentucky for about 5 years total. I went to high school there, and at the time was a dedicated atheist (now I am an agnostic). Having this attitude in the heart of the bible belt got me into a lot of conversations. Typically, people just believed because everyone else they knew believed. When confronted with actual passages in the bible it was obvious that most had never even read more than a few chapters of the book (which I had read through a couple times by 7th grade thanks to catholic school in the north). I’m not implying that **jarbabyj** hasn’t read the bible, only that many people never apply critical thought to the issue choosing instead to go with the group. These types are impossible to reason with because they don’t have any reasons for their belief other than social pressures. Sad really. Evidence. It is a beautiful thing. Testability. Also great. By looking at the evidence and testing things out we have been able to build bridges, cities, fly, go to space, cure diseases, and build the internet. Religion has given us _nothing_ tangible. It has however bred exclusiveness, hatred, war, and a safe haven for pedophiles for years. I’ll take the method any day. DaLovin’ Dj \*read: Told that these things are true, not presented any evidence, and threatened with eternal burning if they don’t believe said non-supported claims. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/7 "2002-05-07T22:09:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by johndcal \* > **1. The scientific community would not accept evolution unless it were soundly proved. As a theory, evolution (Darwin) is on par with plate tectonics and the Big Bang.** If I may just comment on this bit: Darwin did not invent evolution, he posited Natural Selection as the evolutionary mechanism responsible for speciation. He also allowed for subsidiary forms of selection, such as sexual selection, in molding certain features of organisms, which may in turn affect the speciation process. Darwin’s ideas have been built upon and expanded in the 150-odd years since he published _The Origin of Species_. It is therefore erroneous to equate modern evolutionary thought with “Darwin”, or even “Darwinism”. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/8 "2002-05-07T22:09:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > Fallacy. [Appeal to popularity](http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/pop.htm) Incorrect. It is an appeal to authority, which is not always fallacious. In this case, it is not. > [@](#): > > So. You just admitted that this has nothing to do with whether evolution happened or not. I was under the impression that that was the point. > [@](#): > > Fallacy. [False Analogy](http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/falsean.htm). The expanding universe and the death of stars have nothing to do with the theory of evolution. One could easily believe that the universe is billions of years old, started with a big bang and that God created all the species on earth as they are when the Earth was ready. This was not a False Analogy. It was an argument from evidences in related areas of research. To admit that those things occur naturally but deny that another thing does is to commit the fallacy of Special Pleading. I’m not commenting on evolution, just taking the presented arguments apart. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tiny\_ham](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@tiny\_ham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tiny_ham)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/9 "2002-05-07T22:13:19Z")
dalovindj, my church in new york was a study focused church. We had notes and study materials provided before each sermon, there were overhead projectors with questions and notes, and everyone, adult and child, went to sunday school classes after the lesson. After reading the entire bible (yes, I did), having been a youth leader, an intern for my pastor for a summer, a sunday school teacher, being the child of two sunday school teachers, and being exposed to several different theories from several different religions, including non-Christian denominations, it is my belief that God created evolution. And thanks for dragging the pedophile issue back into it, you know, since that has a lot of bearing on the discussion :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/10 "2002-05-07T22:13:45Z")
johndcal wrote: > [@](#): > > Science is not scheming against Christians. That’s just what Satan **wants** you to think! ---
**Author:** ![Amok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f17d59/32.png) [@Amok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amok)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/11 "2002-05-07T22:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > _zev\_steinhardt wrote:_ > Fallacy. It was common sense that the world was flat too… Cite? It’s my understanding that the idea that “everyone thought the world was flat until Colombus sailed to America” is a myth. There may have been societies where the idea of a flat earth was widely accepted, but the popularity of the idea in post-Roman Europe has been greatly exagerated. ---
**Author:** ![Ferrous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Ferrous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferrous)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/12 "2002-05-07T23:28:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Amok \* > \*\* > It’s my understanding that the idea that “everyone thought the world was flat until Colombus sailed to America” is a myth. There may have been societies where the idea of a flat earth was widely accepted, but the popularity of the idea in post-Roman Europe has been greatly exagerated. \*\* Quite so. Scholars in the 15th century knew the earth was round. However, I’m sure there was _some_ point in history when it would have been true to say that “common sense says the world is flat.” ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/13 "2002-05-07T23:31:58Z")
zev- Can I borrow you for a day or two? I have some pesky teachers that I wish to engage in an argument over my grades 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![happyheathen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5e925/32.png) [@happyheathen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/happyheathen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/14 "2002-05-07T23:37:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Triskadecamus \* > \*\*Ah screw it, I say we burn this asshole at the stake. \*\* Cardinal Ratzinger? Is that you? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/15 "2002-05-07T23:40:34Z")
dalovingdj, religion, in the neverending quest of answering “Why?” invented science. ---
**Author:** ![Saen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Saen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saen)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/16 "2002-05-07T23:48:19Z")
I think christian anti-evlotution stance was based on humans coming from apes. I think they would all agree that something like beatles had the same ancestor but evolved to fit their environment. I have heard scientific stances that the current apes today are so far removed from us that they couldnt be a part of the same evlotionary branch as homo-whatevers. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/17 "2002-05-07T23:51:46Z")
Well, you know, you can only rationally discuss something just so many times before you have to ask, “If we just burned this one, wouldn’t make the rest of them think about reading the seven hundred threads on the subject already in the database?” I can support the theory of Evolution, (hell even Darwinism, if I have to) while simultaneously revealing the logical farce perpetrated by ignorant cheerleaders for science a dozen times. But eventually, I get pissed. I am not asking for a Pogram, or a general cleansing of the intellectual plenum. I just want to burn this one asshole, ‘cause I am sick and tired of people who assume no one who believes anything they don’t could possibly have any intelligence. I know it won’t prove anything. I just want the emotional release. I promise, the next anti Christian pseudo scientist gets a pass. Can I please have this one? I’ll be good, really. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/18 "2002-05-07T23:54:36Z")
Maybe we could just burn him a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/19 "2002-05-07T23:55:56Z")
Depends. Can you do it without calling him an “asshole” outside the Pit? Your score so far is negative 2. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790/20 "2002-05-07T23:57:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saen \* > \*\*I think they would all agree that something like beatles had the same ancestor but evolved to fit their environment. > \*\* Their haircuts _were_ all remarkably similar. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-for-dummies-and-christians-simple-powerful-points/107790.md?page=2)