# Evolution is only a religion and not Science **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2002, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524 "2002-09-01T04:55:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/61 "2002-09-02T03:43:38Z")
> [@](#): > > The big bang is old science and has been disproven. Take it from someone who works in the field. It is not old, nor has it been disproven. In any case, let’s go through what you have to say… > [@](#): > > Based on the Big Bang theory, cosmologists predicted that the distribution of matter throughout the universe would be homogeneous. You need to talk about what scales. The Big Bang theory predicts homogeneity at the largest scales. Current all-sky surveys indicate such homogeneity exists. In effect, despite the fact there are local over-densities (clusters) and under-densities (voids), in the end these occur with a regularity that is uniform over a large scale. Think about spilling a bag of marbles over the floor. In one sense the distribution of marbles is uniform (homogeneous). In another sense, it is clumpy (you will see clumps of marbles here and there and places without marbles as well). The statistics of these distributions are of great importance to modern cosmology. Moreover, things with mass attract each other (that’s called gravity), so stuff we see tends to be corrollated with other things we see. This is where the “clumpiness” comes into play. All of this was known back when the model was predicted. All of this was demanded of the model in order for it to work. The Big Bang model was said to HAVE to exhibit homogeneity on large scales while allowing for the clumpiness on small scales. This is exactly what scientists observe. > [@](#): > > Thus, based upon the so-called Cosmological Principle, it was postulated that the distribution of galaxies in the universe would be essentially uniform. Again, you have to say on what scale. On small scales the Big Bang model necessarily predicts the opposite (galaxy-galaxy correlation). > [@](#): > > No matter in which direction one looked, if one looked far enough, one would see the same number of galaxies. And this is EXACTLY what we see, if you go out to large enough scales! > [@](#): > > There would be no large scale clusters of galaxies or great voids in space. Indeed this all depends upon what your definition of “large” is. If on the scale of the universe, then no, you would not expect to see it. However, we have two large structures that are clumpy “clusters” and “voids” These two tend to exist in statistical modelling described above. When we put the initial conditions in, determined mostly by the anisotropy in the CMB we see that we can model the voids and cluster correllations very well from simple physical principles. This is the wonder of what the Big Bang model has brought us. Not only does it predict large scale homogeneity which we see, it even accounts for the variability (or clumpiness, as you put it) we also see. In short it does what you claim it doesn’t do. > [@](#): > > Recent research, however, has revealed massive superclusters of galaxies and vast voids in space. We exist in a very “clumpy” universe. Ah! The old supercluster conundrum. What makes structures that are too large too be virial over the time-scale of the universe? The answer is found in CMB evidence of inflation. When you have quantum fluctuations in your seed, you end up enlarging this to the scales we see today. CMB anisotropies are seen to be exactly what is necessary to explain these structures. In short, the “clumpy” universe is well predicted and allowed for by the Big Bang model. It was a noble effort at falsification, but I have to say, try again! ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/62 "2002-09-02T03:55:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by James Jensen \* > **no response unless the evidence is posted here with no link to another site.** I suppose, then, that logical arguments are completely foreign to your mindset? I guess years of brainwashing _will_ do that. See, with science, people are allowed to _think_. That is, they don’t have to just observe and be so utterly confused as to what can cause what they see that they simply choose to ignore those observations. I gave you three such observations, and the logical conclusion from those arguments. I then asked you to refute either the observations, or the conclusion. You apparently can do neither. Others have directed you to a website which acts as a repository for a good deal of data regarding evolution and evolutionary processes. So, it’s pretty obvious that you _have_ been presented plenty of evidence. That you choose not to even examine it, much less attempt an actual refutation of it, is simply evidence of the **fact** that you are so closed-minded that you are incapable of rational discussion with respect to this topic. I would suggest you might be able to generate a discussion more to your liking at a creationist website where everyone thinks (and I use the term loosely) just like you. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/63 "2002-09-02T04:10:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by James Jensen \* > **I will not respond to theories, philosophies, ideas, concepts, definitions, speculation, or opinions these are all traites of religion and these can be argued in another forum but I will only deal with that which is posted as supposed but only contrived proof.** All you need to know is right there in the last four words. You are wasting your time responding to **JJ**. He asks for “evidence” but has already decided that it will be “contrived”. That’s about as much as you need to know. No matter how fresh the water, you can’t make the horse drink. We haven’t got enough resources to fight all ignorance. Let’s do some triage, hmmmm? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/64 "2002-09-02T04:13:48Z")
Albatross! ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/65 "2002-09-02T04:21:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by James Jensen \* > \*\*no response unless the evidence is posted here with no link to another site. \*\* Afraid someone will actually post the _missing link_ and take the wind out of your sails, eh? Why are you afraid of cited references? I fail to understand this. ---
**Author:** ![Baldwin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baldwin/32/7264_2.png) [@Baldwin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baldwin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/66 "2002-09-02T04:40:54Z")
I’m wondering if the problem here could be one of language. I don’t know what country James lives in, but perhaps English is new to him, and he is struggling with some of the concepts (such as “concepts”) and definitions (such as “definitions”). ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/67 "2002-09-02T04:51:54Z")
If Jensen’s posts seem out of synch with the course of this discussion it may be due to the fact that they are slightly evolved versions of posts in a thread of the same name which Jensen currently has going at another board: [Evolution is only a religion and not science](http://www.9news.com/..%5Cdiscussions/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=476) This strikes me as a dishonest way to engage in a discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/68 "2002-09-02T05:08:15Z")
You’re wasting your time trying to reason with Jensen. Why don’t you try spending your time doing more productive things, like reading poetry to a brick? ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/69 "2002-09-02T05:21:53Z")
The whole problem here is that James Jensen hasn’t the foggiest idea how to debate. Here he is demanding evidence, yet at the same time demands that no evidence be given. Essentially, he’s saying “Don’t say anything that proves me wrong.” Tough noogies. He’s already been proven wrong. Now let’s just watch him squirm. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/70 "2002-09-02T06:27:02Z")
On the [9NEWS.com](http://9NEWS.com) link posted above by **Squink** , **James Jensen** has authored four threads in three different forums, all titled “Evolution is only a religion not science” or merely “Evolution.” All threads were started in the last 3 days. Many of his posts appear to be identical across both forums and message boards, cut-n-paste jobs that I suspect he didn’t originally write. At least some match blocks of text at [creationscience.com](http://creationscience.com). Take a look at [another thread](http://www.9news.com/..%5Cdiscussions/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=470) he _didn’t_ author, but has dominated with tacky text and irrelevant references. If you think his posts on SDMB are strange, you ain’t seen nothin’ yet, Jocko. Nobody’s listening anymore, **JJ.** Back under the bridge you go. ---
**Author:** ![Rhapsody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9de0a6/32.png) [@Rhapsody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhapsody)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/71 "2002-09-02T11:18:35Z")
why do christians feel threaened by evolution? Evolution does not disporove creation or even conflict with it. God mad man in his image. What IS “Gods Image” He has no physical body so his "image or “likeness” would have to reflect his spiritual self. God creates man in the first chapter of genesis and gives him dominion over the world. In chapter 2 is when he creates Adam. Adam was “created” by being given a soul as was Eve and from these 2 the sould was recreated in each of their children and each of their descendents. Their children did not need to marry each other they mated with other humans and their children also were born with “souls”. If you consider the entirety of Genesis chapter 1 as being the Genesis of the world and evolution of the planet and its lifeforms until they reached maturity, then chapter 2 is the beginning of mans history with God. Never in any of the bible does God ever create anything out of nothing. Everything starts with a single item. Just as even jesus had to be born (grown) from an egg, he was not just placed in existence. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/72 "2002-09-02T12:54:29Z")
[Moderator Hat: ON] James Jensen: I have edited your post at the top of this page because you _once again_ took copyrighted material and posted it without attribution. You have been warned about this once already. Of course, this is incredibly ironic given that in the same message you said you would not accept links to outside sources, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to the rules (just to how others will perceive you). Let me make it clear: One more time and you’re outta here. * * * – David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/73 "2002-09-02T14:49:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by James Jensen \* > \*\* > Who produced the hybrid an intelligent being (man) intervened. This is not proof of evolution but human tampering. Most hybrid will produce a little seed so what does that prove nothing. \*\* Well, it’s proof of speciation, even if it happened artificially and not naturally. If you want natural speciation, how about this (from the same site). > [@](#): > > 5.1.1.1 Evening Primrose (Oenothera gigas) > While studying the genetics of the evening primrose, Oenothera lamarckiana, de Vries (1905) found an unusual variant among his plants. O. lamarckiana has a chromosome number of 2N = 14. The variant had a chromosome number of 2N = 28. He found that he was unable to breed this variant with O. lamarckiana. He named this new species O. gigas. You’re not going to see evolution happen, exactly, because it’s not an event but a process, and one that takes generations. However, like someone else said, look at antibiotic resistant bacteria. Until recently, most bacteria weren’t antibiotic resistant. If you had a bacterial infection, you just took some antibiotics and you were all set. But now, since we’ve been using antibiotics for so long, and since we’ve been using so many of them, bacterial species are evolving to be immune to them, because those bacterial vulnerable get killed by the antibiotics and those not vulnerable survive to reproduce. This is a major public health concern, and it’s also an example of an evolutionary process occuring. ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/74 "2002-09-02T15:01:15Z")
**Rhapsody** , only some Christians feel threatened by evolution. A good portion (myself included) think that it’s a great way for God to keep the world dynamic. I like to compare it to gravity as God’s way of keeping us all with our feet on the ground. A rational Christian would not come to the conclusion that _everything_ that God does _must_ be miraculous. He’s just miraculous when He needs to be. Evolution, in my opinion, is just an un-miraculous way of creating humanity. No, I have no way of backing this up with facts, just have an opinion. With this opinion, I also firmly believe that evolution happened, and is happening. **James Jensen** , perhaps you would oblige us with your definition of “evolution” so we can figure out just what we are supposed to be debating here. Pretty please? Gracias! ---
**Author:** ![Soup\_du\_jour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Soup\_du\_jour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup_du_jour)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/75 "2002-09-02T15:05:00Z")
One could get the impression from my previous post that I believe the main goal of evolution was and is to create humanity. I should clarify. Evolution is a scientific process, completely natural, that God used to create humanity. Just as I use a fork to beat eggs, and don’t do it by hand. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/76 "2002-09-02T16:11:48Z")
Hmmm. I notice quite a similarity between **Rhapsody** and **James Jenson** ’s posts (incoherent rambling, no paragraph separation, non-sequitur biblical quotes, a link lack, etc.). Dear Mods: Any possibility we are hosting a sock hop for trolls here? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/77 "2002-09-02T16:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **I love the idea of evolution (our children can be better than we are; all life is a noble struggle toward perfection)** Um, the way you’ve phrased this particular Ode to Evolution smacks of the old “myth of the evolutionary ladder.” Just to clarify: Evolution is **not** a directed process toward some ultimate goal. Natural Selection does tend to “improve” species in the sense that it drives them toward being very well adapted to their **current** environment, but evolution has no “foresight” as to what will be needed the next time the environment changes. Human creative ingenuity, and all the marvelous products thereof, are little more than a “happy accident” of the fact that shrewd pattern-recognition and tool-making skills were useful to our ancestors on the African savannah. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/78 "2002-09-02T17:05:58Z")
Oh, wait – I just noticed that **gobear** already made essentially the same comment on **Bryan Ekers** ’s post that I did. \ Never mind! \ ---
**Author:** ![mariamacl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/779978/32.png) [@mariamacl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mariamacl)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/79 "2002-09-02T20:06:46Z")
I have read through all the posts and followed all the links. Then I went back to the book of Genesis. I have to conclude that on the weight of evidence…the creationists win the argument. How exquisitely rational (if somewhat scientifically complex) is the concept of a supreme intelligence, in a fit of creativity, and using whatever materials he happened to have to hand, creating the whole world that we know - cockroaches and all - in a mere seven days then maintaining a fatherly interest in it for all time! This realization is going to make an enormous difference to my life!! There’s only one teeny weeny stumbling block to my full comprehension on which I’m hoping Mr Jensen will be able to enlighten me: Why did God make the woman out of a man’s RIB of all things? It’s not an obvious modelling medium but as they say the Lord moves in mysterious ways. I hope you’ll provide me with an answer. But please… no theories, philosphies, ideas, concepts etc. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/80 "2002-09-02T20:52:03Z")
If JJ is not allowed to copy/paste his materials to this board, I don’t think he’s going to stick around for a debate. On that 9news board he has litterally several pages of posts all of that sort of copied stuff, and everything else is “I don’t respond to… etc.” He dismisses talkorgins entirely as “all misquotes and misleading.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524.md?page=5)