# Evolution is only a religion and not Science **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 1, 2002, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524 "2002-09-01T04:55:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/81 "2002-09-02T21:04:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mariamacl \* > **I have read through all the posts and followed all the links. Then I went back to the book of Genesis. I have to conclude that on the weight of evidence…the creationists win the argument.** Um … is that that new thing called sarcasm? I mean, I didn’t see a :rolleyes: in your post, so I just wanna be sure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f8ce5/32.png) [@The\_Peyote\_Coyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Peyote_Coyote)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/82 "2002-09-02T21:10:39Z")
As much as I am astounded by the knowledge of my fellow Dopers, I feel you guys are wasting your time. This person is Phaedrus without the charm or the command of the Queen’s English. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/83 "2002-09-02T21:28:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote \* > \*\*This person is Phaedrus without the charm or the command of the Queen’s English. \*\* Then how’d he get his doctorate ? > [@](#): > > Recently, **Dr. James Jenson** , paleontologist at Brigham Young University, discovered in western Colorado the fossil remains of a bird thought to be as old as Archaeopteryx but much more modern in form. This would seem to give the death knell to any possible use of Archaeopteryx by evolutionists as a transitional form." -Quote from “The Evolution Cruncher” by Vance Ferrel; at [Creation Science Evangelism Ministry](http://www.drdino.com/cse.asp?pg=articles&specific=32) site. Strangely, I couldn’t find a James Jenson associated with Brigham Young. Maybe it’s a typo ? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/84 "2002-09-02T21:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by The Peyote Coyote \* > \*\*As much as I am astounded by the knowledge of my fellow Dopers, I feel you guys are wasting your time. This person is Phaedrus without the charm or the command of the Queen’s English. \*\* What do you mean? All the bits expunged by the moderators contained excellent English. I smell a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Atreyu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@Atreyu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atreyu)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/85 "2002-09-02T21:36:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mariamacl \* > \*\*But please… no theories, philosphies, ideas, concepts etc. \*\* Funny…that’s almost _exactly_ what **James Jensen** said on page one of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/86 "2002-09-02T21:42:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mariamacl \* > \*\*There’s only one teeny weeny stumbling block to my full comprehension on which I’m hoping Mr Jensen will be able to enlighten me: Why did God make the woman out of a man’s RIB of all things? \*\* Actually, I often wondered about that. One would expect women to have been made out of some part of the body which has a more obvious symbolic value. Perhaps it’s related to others meanings of the word “rib” in Hebrew, or some kind of pun (there are some in the bible). Does someone know? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/87 "2002-09-02T21:48:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\* > > Until recently, most bacteria weren’t antibiotic resistant. If you had a bacterial infection, you just took some antibiotics and you were all set. But now, since we’ve been using antibiotics for so long, and since we’ve been using so many of them, bacterial species are evolving to be immune to them, because those bacterial vulnerable get killed by the antibiotics and those not vulnerable survive to reproduce. This is a major public health concern, and it’s also an example of an evolutionary process occuring. \*\* Nope. God created the diseases like everything else and they were particulary useful to punish sinners and unbelievers. He’s very pissed at us for trying to cure them, so he has created antibiotic-resistant bacterias. ---
**Author:** ![KillerFig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/51bf81/32.png) [@KillerFig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KillerFig)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/88 "2002-09-02T22:06:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\* > > Perhaps it’s related to others meanings of the word “rib” in Hebrew, or some kind of pun (there are some in the bible). Does someone know? \*\* [Cecil speaks.](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a1_095b.html) In a nutshell, it does, in fact, seem to be a Sumerian pun which lost something in the translation (I’m hoping this suggestion will not raise the ire of our new creationist friend). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/89 "2002-09-02T23:02:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*Sorry to nitpick, but evolution is merely a gene shift in a population in response to environmental pressure. Imposing a teleogical purpose on a purely natural process is not warranted. There is no “struggle toward perfection.” \*\* Ach, the nitpicking gene, the useless appendix of poetic thought. I _know_ lifeforms are “perfect” at each stage of evolution, but I find the overall struggle from unicellular to reptile to mammal to primate to hominid to homo sapiens to be somewhat more noble and more deserving of appreciation than God saying “I’m bored, so up and Adam.” And don’t bother nitpicking my little evolutionary sequence, puh-leeze. I’m being poetic again. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/90 "2002-09-02T23:10:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > **I _know_ lifeforms are “perfect” at each stage of evolution** [nitpick]Is that correct? - I would have thought ‘most adequate’ would be closer…[/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2002, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/91 "2002-09-02T23:43:14Z")
I shall concentrate on developing a mental shield against such attacks; one I will pass on to my children, sir. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/92 "2002-09-03T01:29:17Z")
—I’m being poetic again.— Poetry can be just as lousy as sloppy thinking, especially when it’s based on sloppy thinking ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/93 "2002-09-03T01:57:03Z")
If I read this correctly, a Mormon has (implicitly) criticized the profit motive. HAS HELL FROZEN OVER?!? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by James Jensen \* > \*\*Atreyu - Are you trying to profit off it monetarily, are you claiming it to be your own, where’s the copyright problem? \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/94 "2002-09-03T02:06:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*I shall concentrate on developing a mental shield against such attacks; one I will pass on to my children, sir. \*\* You Lamarckian, you. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![AmbushBug](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ambushbug/32/4600_2.png) [@AmbushBug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AmbushBug)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/95 "2002-09-03T03:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by mariamacl \* > \*\* > There’s only one teeny weeny stumbling block to my full comprehension on which I’m hoping Mr Jensen will be able to enlighten me: Why did God make the woman out of a man’s RIB of all things? > \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\* > Actually, I often wondered about that. One would expect women to have been made out of some part of the body which has a more obvious symbolic value. > \*\* You can take this with a huge pillar of salt, but I had a friend who swore that “rib” isn’t how the Talmud(Bereishith) translates and Eve was made [sub]um[/sub] from Adam’s [sub]foreskin[/sub]. Any Talmudic scholars dredging this thread today? A google search about this weird idea produced nothing but [plenty](http://www.thirtysevenbooks.com/Arizal/TazriaMetzora5762.htm) of [sites](http://www.cirp.org/pages/cultural/glass1/) which would’ve been likely to mention it. AmbushBug [sub]I almost used the “spoiler” tag but I figured the book referenced is probably old enough :D[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Genseric](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Genseric](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genseric)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/96 "2002-09-03T05:09:18Z")
I was going to post some salient points to add to the colossal weight of info against the OP, but I need to study _The Origin Of Species_ for Evolution Church, and make my nightly prayers to Darwin. Our Darwin, who art in the grave, hallowed be thy name. Thy theory come. Thy process be active in present, as it was in past, Give us this day our daily genetic drift. And forgive us our mutations, as we forgive our mutagens, And lead us not into inheritance of acquired traits, But deliver us from “Intelligent Design”. For thine is the fact, the process, and the theory, for ever and ever, A Man. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/97 "2002-09-03T05:27:46Z")
When I saw this thread title, I thought perhaps we’d see some intelligent objections to evolution, not the garbage I see in talk.origins. Alas, the same old trolling I’ve seen for decades. Interesting to analyze "JJ"s argument though. First, he demands repeatable scientific evidence, the kind only obtainable through laboratory experiments. When presented, he rejects it because people were involved. (I suppose JJ does not consider seismology a science either, since it is hard to reproduce an earthquake.) Second, he gets slapped on the wrist for posting copyrighted stuff. Notice how immediately afterwards he starts to demand that we post copyrighted stuff, not links? My observation is that creationists are one of four things - ignorant, stupid, liars or fanatics. The ignorant are the good ones. Perhaps all they know about evolution is from church bulletins. When they are shown the evidence, they read, and at least agree to look at it. The stupid never quite get why there is no difference between microevolution and macroevolution. It is hard to tell the fanatics from the liars. These are the ones who close their eyes and refuse to even look at the evidence because it might change their worldview. It is hard to tell the difference between those who are truthfully fanatical and those who must know the truth but refuse to acknowledge it because they would lose their lecture and ICR jobs. So, JJ, which are you? ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/98 "2002-09-03T06:39:50Z")
What was your expectation James? That you were going to come here and be some kind of rhetorical creationist superhero with intricate, dazzling arguments that no one has seen before? It always ends this way in these threads when horseplay turns to tears with creationists defensive, baffled and confused after their straw men get burned and asses blistered by the rhetorical paddling of their lives. Doesn’t the majesty of God’s universe allow for a more complete and complex description of the process of life than what we imagined 2000 years ago? The nature of the world is inherently atomistic James, why can’t God be powerful enough to handle the little complicated stuff also? Why do you have to make him this ham handed omnipotent muppet that can only handle things will blunt conceptual mittens. Give him a little credit, don’t hamstring God with the limits of your imagination. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/99 "2002-09-03T16:30:18Z")
I contacted the only Jamese Jensen I could find on BYU faculty. He’s in microbiology and here is what he had to say in regards to the “other” James Jensen in paleontology: > [@](#): > > You refer to the late “Dinosaur Jim Jensen”, a well-known and highly respected paleontologist who died a few years ago. I don’t know of all his many discoveries. However, I believe he, like all scientists here at BYU, probably would be distressed to find that his scientific work was being used to support “creation-science”. Since science has established an excellent record in support of evolution, and since creation-science is an oxymoron, I don’t believe that he would support any views concerning this subject that were outside the accepted range of scientific acceptability. > > James B. Jensen Seems our James Jensen is yet a third James Jensen. So many JJs, so little time. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524/100 "2002-09-03T17:47:24Z")
:applauds: Nice work, **JS**. Cecil would be proud. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-is-only-a-religion-and-not-science/126524.md?page=6)