# Evolution of the Christian God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245 "2009-01-27T17:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/21 "2009-01-27T21:18:12Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > The OT was written when god was a teenager, raising hell, getting into fights, vandalizing the world with floods, torturing pious men. > > Then around 0 CE God had a kid and mellowed out. Spent time at Ikea, looking at preschools. He had his tattoos removed and got a job where he had to wear a tie. > > Then by about 500 CE, God retired and started listening to right-wing talk radio. He’d shout at kids to keep off his damn lawn and talk about when he was younger kids would pray five times a day and obey the fucking dietary laws… mutter mutter… Can I use this at Church (if I dare)? I, of course, totally disagree but I still love it! ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/22 "2009-01-27T21:33:06Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Can I use this at Church (if I dare)? > > I, of course, totally disagree but I still love it! Feel free. Although I can’t be held responsible for lighting strikes or locust plagues. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/23 "2009-01-27T21:45:37Z")
I’ve been thinking in the same lines, I couldn’t help it while reading the OT, and was repeatedly surprised by God’s morals. I read [Answer to Job](http://www.amazon.com/Answer-Job-Collected-Works-Extracts/dp/0691017859/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233092519&sr=1-1) by CG Jung, which is an very interesting reflection on this matter. I took the question of a changing God to a priest I happened to meet, but he didn’t seem to understand it at all. “That’d a strange God”, was his only answer, smiling fatherly. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/24 "2009-01-27T22:35:12Z")
It is certainly easier to understand from an anthropological point of view than from a theological point of view. Simply put, assuming that god-stories are created by people to explain the nature of reality, it is small wonder that God appears alternatively awesome and awful; the world is sometimes a great place, and sometimes a really horrible place. The difficulty arises when one expects this creation to be the work of a _nice_ god, or one at least that comports with human notions of morality. This requires considerably more mental gymnastics. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/25 "2009-01-27T23:13:22Z")
I’m with Tom on this. Jesus has been misinterpreted & misadvertised a great deal. The OT God might punish you in this life, or let other forces mess with you (as he did with Job). But it’s Christianity that introduced the idea of a God that appears not even to exist in this physical life, then hits you with unending torment if you get on his wrong side–and his wrong side is invisible. That’s far far more cruel. Someone who manifested himself with plagues was more decent. And then of course, what Jesus actually meant & how later churchmen interpreted it may be verrry different. But even so, Jesus was a prophet of wrath. We forget that, because he failed to return & smite all the wicked in a timely manner. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/26 "2009-01-28T02:22:23Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Yeah, the flood; torturing Job and killing his family; Sodom, Gamorrah and Lot’s wife; the plagues; holding up the insane serial killer Samson as a hero and so on. YHWH is just a major douche in the OT. He’s not a God so much as a dragon on a hill that you have to placate with blood sacrifice so he doesn’t burn your village. That’s a bit harsh. He only hurts us because he loves us. And if we’d quit mouthing off and worshipping golden calves and eating pork, then he wouldn’t be forced to show his love by occasionally giving us a black eye or two… ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/27 "2009-01-28T02:26:56Z")
There’s also the idea that it is our understanding, our maturity as a race, that is changing rather than God. God has remained constant but our understanding of God has not. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/28 "2009-01-28T02:29:13Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > First of all, evolution is just a theory. > > Second, the Christians that I grew up around would reject your question as invalid because God Never Changes. Hence, he did not change at all between the OT and the NT. > > But, you protest, the OT God is very different from the NT God. To which they reply, God Never Changes. Hence, he did not change at all between the OT and the NT. And because you asked the question, your Sunday School teacher will tell your parents and you will have to spend the rest of the day in your room. God may not have changed, but mankind’s _perception_ of Him may be said to have changed a great deal over the millennia. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/29 "2009-01-28T02:34:36Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But they were all baaaad. Ditto the Sodomites. After this, the OT god pretty much left everyone alone except for those who messed with his people, and his people who strayed. Sometimes. Sometimes the straying king died in his bed of old age, and the virtuous king died early. But when these people died, they were just dead. Except for that time he killed almost the entire population of mankind…not to mention every kitten on earth. I’m still trying to figure out why God required such a massive amount of collateral damage and needless death to “send a message”. Can’t a God who created the universe just as easily make all the bad people have heart attacks? Or even create a targeted plague? Or something else that only kills the wicked and not…everything? And if the rest of humanity truely was beyond saving and was better off dead, doesn’t that imply a massive failure on God’s part for allowing the rot to take root and fester in the system that long, so that genocide is the only option? ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/30 "2009-01-28T03:19:58Z")
> [@hobscrk777](#): > > Perfect example of [Poe’s Law](http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe%27s_Law). I honestly cannot tell whether you’re dead serious or just laying on the sarcasm with a heavy hand. Sorry that you are confused by my post. I am serious. I have a 0200 appointment with God in the prayer room tonight. I will not have any problem with subject material tonight for sure. As for this “Poe’s Law”, i am ignorant about that and looked at your link. The reference to Fred Phelps is an interesting reminder of how far I have come in my faith over the years. Some time back, 10\>\< years ago I was excited by Fred’s ministry and was ready and willing to join into it as I was so full of hate in those days. That is not me today. Just this past week I was helping a fellow Christian that is labeled as a sex offender. He has confessed his sins and accepted our Savior Jesus into his life. Who am I to look down on this man now? I do pray for the victim(s), and also for him. There is only one God that could cause me to change from Hate to Love and that is our Heavenly Father. I sure hope you are clear on what I am now Sir. Greg ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/31 "2009-01-28T03:38:16Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > There’s also the idea that it is our understanding, our maturity as a race, that is changing rather than God. God has remained constant but our understanding of God has not. I’m not sure that’s necessarily so, or rather, that perhaps it doesn’t cover the whole issue. If it was purely a difference of our understanding, then certainly that would explain a gradual change over time not only in our perceptions of God but also writings, those being coloured by our perceptions. Us as believers in military triumphalism lead to us celebrating and selecting those times when God kills a bunch of enemies of the people to record, while us as believers in mercy and forgiveness of sins leads to us recording those points that show God to be those things. However, while the selection and view of such events may be affected simply by our perceptions, the events themselves are less so. The Bible may contain verses on God’s more wrathful actions because we liked a good bit of wrath, but that doesn’t mean those events didn’t happen (there’s other reasons for that, of course ;)). So i’d say that while we should be careful not to assume perceptions haven’t been changing, it’s also not entirely reasonable to _completely_ handwave any apparent changes at all, at least based on that alone. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/32 "2009-01-28T04:50:51Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I’m not sure that’s necessarily so, or rather, that perhaps it doesn’t cover the whole issue. If it was purely a difference of our understanding, then certainly that would explain a gradual change over time not only in our perceptions of God but also writings, those being coloured by our perceptions. Us as believers in military triumphalism lead to us celebrating and selecting those times when God kills a bunch of enemies of the people to record, while us as believers in mercy and forgiveness of sins leads to us recording those points that show God to be those things. However, while the selection and view of such events may be affected simply by our perceptions, the events themselves are less so. The Bible may contain verses on God’s more wrathful actions because we liked a good bit of wrath, but that doesn’t mean those events didn’t happen (there’s other reasons for that, of course ;)). > > So i’d say that while we should be careful not to assume perceptions haven’t been changing, it’s also not entirely reasonable to _completely_ handwave any apparent changes at all, at least based on that alone. I’m not sure I’m following you. I’m talking about a speculative theological position {what other kind is there} that God is eternal and changeless. If that is true then the only thing that could change is us and our perception. That change in our maturity is reflected in how the balance shifts on what is perceived , taught, and prioritized. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/33 "2009-01-28T05:08:15Z")
RE the whole Flood Thing tarnishing God’s record. He did give us rainbows to make up for it. There weren’t too many people living back then, I reckon. Let’s say, for sake of argument there was half a billion. Well, today there’s nearly 7 billion, and according to Revelation a third of them are going to die (if I recall correctly.) That’s probably a lot more than who died with the flood. Therefore, NT God is just as much, or perhaps more of a wrathful god as the OT. He also sacrificed his son on a cross - That’s pretty frickin’ mean. He almost did the same thing with Abraham’s son, Isaac in the OT, but let him live - that’s a little bit nicer I think. ---
**Author:** ![wsbenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b38774/32.png) [@wsbenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wsbenge)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/34 "2009-01-28T05:22:58Z")
> [@Reply](#): > > In Christianity, what gives the sweet and loving post-Jesus God more validity than the wrathful original one? I am not convinced there is more validity. I think one of the many things that Christ’s life became, was a test of the Jewish government. They failed. I think wrathful is on a case by case basis, to see what people will REALLY do. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/35 "2009-01-28T07:13:48Z")
> [@Gbro](#): > > Sorry that you are confused by my post. I am serious. I have a 0200 appointment with God in the prayer room tonight. I will not have any problem with subject material tonight for sure. > As for this “Poe’s Law”, i am ignorant about that and looked at your link. The reference to Fred Phelps is an interesting reminder of how far I have come in my faith over the years. > Some time back, 10\>\< years ago I was excited by Fred’s ministry and was ready and willing to join into it as I was so full of hate in those days. That is not me today. Just this past week I was helping a fellow Christian that is labeled as a sex offender. He has confessed his sins and accepted our Savior Jesus into his life. Who am I to look down on this man now? I do pray for the victim(s), and also for him. > There is only one God that could cause me to change from Hate to Love and that is our Heavenly Father. > I sure hope you are clear on what I am now Sir. > > Greg Now I’m confused. Helping a fellow Christian sex offender. What if this sex offender decided to accept Allah or Abraham or L Ron Hubbard as his personal savior? I hope that’s a yes, or you may be proving that christianity is all for separation. One thing-- you call the cops? Or was this in prison where Jesus is most popular? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/36 "2009-01-28T08:25:05Z")
Reply, IMHO, most Dopers have already-- somewhat inadvertently-- have given you the answer: Mankind. Men, especially. This is a story entirely created by men, told by men then women, then embellished by men and women to this very moment. Just today, I met someone who said that god has a spaceship and when the bible was written, we just didn’t know what a spaceship was and the further we travel in space, we will find that ship and simply board. I asked if preboarding was necessary and got a fun glance. This story is and was passed using our favorite game of all time: telephone line. 'Cept now, we can post about it. " I read somewhere…" Check out children’s illustrated bibles. We see a god that looks a hell of a lot like Santa. A Jesus like Justin Timberlake sans the violent stories. Now imagine kids hearing a similar story in early Greece of how Zeus was born and his life story. What all this means? The OT god and NT god are just the same vapid TV show, different seasons, different cast, same story. Shit, it’s EASTENDERS! Or worse… Knightrider… ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/37 "2009-01-28T10:05:59Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > But they were all baaaad. Ditto the Sodomites. I was not critizising God’s behavior. I was just saying that “wrathful” is definitely a word you could use to describe his persona. Even going on a righteous killing spree and killing, say, 50 people, would be enough for me to use the word wrathful. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/38 "2009-01-28T10:48:27Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Now I’m confused. Helping a fellow Christian sex offender. > **What if this sex offender decided to accept Allah** or Abraham or L Ron Hubbard > as his personal savior? I hope that’s a yes, or you may be proving that christianity > is all for separation. He has, He serves God! (Allah) > [@Locrian](#): > > One thing-- you call the cops? Or was this in prison where > Jesus is most popular? The sex offender has served the sentence given by the court. The Savior he has accepted is Jesus! The reason I can forgive this fellow sinner(We all sin) is there are so many other sex offenders in our society’s that have not been found and labeled as this man has been. Do not get me wrong, I hate the sin, but i can forgive the sinner. Trust is earned Forgiveness gives all of us peace. Praise The Lord! ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/39 "2009-01-28T15:14:49Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > First of all, evolution is just a theory. First of all, [evolution is **not** “just a theory.”](http://www.notjustatheory.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/40 "2009-01-28T15:36:28Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > First of all, [evolution is **not** “just a theory.”](http://www.notjustatheory.com/) Second of all, whooooosh! > [@Gbro](#): > > The sex offender has served the sentence given by the court. The Savior he has accepted is Jesus! > The reason I can forgive this fellow sinner(We all sin) is there are so many other sex offenders in our society’s that have not been found and labeled as this man has been. > Do not get me wrong, I hate the sin, but i can forgive the sinner. Trust is earned Forgiveness gives all of us peace. > Praise The Lord! Would you let him babysit your kids for a weekend? What if you prayed really hard that wouldn’t molest them, would you trust God to keep your kids safe? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245.md?page=3)