# Evolution of the Christian God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245 "2009-01-27T17:11:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/41 "2009-01-28T17:36:23Z")
Since nobody else has posted the obligatory link yet, I’ll do it. If you’re interested in how our understanding of God (or our assertions, or perceptions, depending on your point of view) have changed over time, [this book is your must read](http://www.amazon.com/History-God-000-Year-Judaism-Christianity/dp/0345384563). It’s incredibly well researched and very compelling, and the author does a remarkable job keeping her personal opinions almost entirely hidden. Naturally, on a subject like this, it’s nearly impossible not to have a point of view and to keep those biases from influencing the text, but the author does as well as could reasonably be hoped. (Note, there are some godbotherers in the Amazon reviews trying to make hay out of this, but their agenda is clear and their claims can be dismissed.) I highly recommend the book. ---
**Author:** ![Gbro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Gbro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gbro)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/42 "2009-01-28T18:04:14Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > Would you let him babysit your kids for a weekend? What if you prayed really hard that wouldn’t molest them, would you trust God to keep your kids safe? As I posted > [@](#): > > Trust is earned and this man knows that. I am in charge of scheduling for our prayer room and in doing so I apply the church policy on sex offenders, There **must** be another church member in the building while he is there. We must protect the flock. But we do accept him and others to worship with us and make every effort to follow the guidelines and be brothers in Christ. That being said, We know about him, and that is because he told us about his past not because of being notified by the system, but there are many many others that we do not know about. What i am trying to say is, not all sex offenders are listed and we must be on guard at all times. Kind of why the BSA forbids homosexuals from being scout leaders. They are simply being cautious. > [@](#): > > would you trust God to keep your kids safe? God gave me the ability to keep my family safe. I do not blame God when something evil happens. I pray for protection from evil, and for me to be protected from temptation. I do believe that this helps. I also do not pretend to understand all of Gods ways. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/43 "2009-01-28T18:26:08Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not sure I’m following you. I’m talking about a speculative theological position {what other kind is there} that God is eternal and changeless. If that is true then the only thing that could change is us and our perception. That change in our maturity is reflected in how the balance shifts on what is perceived , taught, and prioritized. If you’re starting out from that premise, then yes, that’s a good answer. My point is that we can’t necessarily start off with that premise as given. ---
**Author:** ![kniz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@kniz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kniz)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/44 "2009-01-28T19:25:15Z")
> [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](#): > > First of all, evolution is just a theory. > > Hence, he did not change at all between the OT and the NT. God got P.O.'d at mankind and sent a great flood to destroy them. After it was over and Noah once again set foot on dry ground, God decided He’d made a mistake. He invented the rainbow as a sign that He would never do that again. So that is one case where God changed. If you believe the above story is factual, then it is no wonder that you question evolution. Truth is that God probably never has changed, but man’s view of God has. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/45 "2009-01-28T19:29:30Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > They are also pretty well unaware that their deity started off life as a Storm God that kept getting bumped up the pantheonic hierarchy until eventually chosen to the one big one. I’ve never heard this before. Can you point me in the direction of more information on this topic? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/46 "2009-01-28T20:28:59Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > If you’re starting out from that premise, then yes, that’s a good answer. My point is that we can’t necessarily start off with that premise as given. Agreed, but from my understanding of most theology, that is the premise rather than God has changed. I just thought since we’re discussing it it deserved a mention. Unless the thread was just provide an outlet for comedic sarcasm, which is also fine. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/47 "2009-01-29T01:52:31Z")
Actually, what is being observed here has little or nothing to do with whether or not there is a God, changeable or unchanging. Rather, the differences lie in the evolving human conception of God. It’s entirely possible the earliest Hebrews were polytheists – all those Els being worshipped, most but not all of whom were subsumed into the conception of YHWH/Elohim. What does seem evident is that the oldest substrata of Biblical ingredients suggest _henotheism_ – all our neighbors have gods, sure, but **pur** God’s better than your god, our God’s better than yours! Our God’s better, 'cause we eat kosher rations… Sorry! :o From that evolved a chosen-people monotheism: There is but one real God, and for reasons of His own He’s chosen us Israelites to be His People. There’s still a strand of that in modern-day Judaism – they’re “chosen” not for any inherent merit but because they see themselves as examples to the rest of humanity of what He wants of mankind. With Deutero- and Trito-Isaiah and Jonah, we come to a third conception: YHWH is Lord of all the Earth, extending His justice and mercy to all. It is on this that Christianity built its “anthropology” – by the act of His Son, God has brought all mankind into a New Covenant whereby they are **all** included in the new Israel, His church. The Law is transformed from God’s ordinances and statutes to a _paidogogos_ – the servant sent to keep the young heir safe as he goes off to school. The exact same conception of Law is present as in American constitutional law – “the Law” is an overarching system simply defined into which individual statutes fit only as they carry out and do not conflict with those basic principles. Jesus summarizes it in Matthew 22:34-40 and parallels in the other Synoptic Gospels, and in Matthew 7:12 in different words. Paul, the Pharisee freed from his subservience to the Law by the Damascus Road experience, never quite throws off his legalism, though he tries hard and incorporates passages stressing a nonlegalistic view, such as Romans chapters 8 and 14 ad Galatians 5. But he still falls into the trap of playing Rabbi and judging throughout his letters. So where does this leave the wrathful, vengeance-striking God brought up over and over again in earlier posts here and elsewhere in GD? Well, remember how many televangelists and such were pointing to Katrina as a sign of God’s vengeance on a sinful city? BS, of course, but the fact of the matter is that a lot of them did. Well, do you think that the OT figures were paragons of virtue compared to them? If it seems like a strategically good idea to wipe out the Amelekites, and we can claim that it’s God’s command not ours (just like the main reason to support Proposition 8 is not that **we** hate gay marriage; it’s that **God** does, and we are just carrying out His will by our votes…)… Passing the buck to put the blame on God for what’s our idea has been a big part of human motivation for probably s long as there has been a conception of God. (He killed his father? He has to be ostracized – not that we ourselves condemn him, oh no! But you don’t want to get the Furies pissed off at us…) I know wat **my** conception of God is, and it’s not one that sends people to an eternity of burning in sulfurated fires for the heinous sin of picking the wrong theologians to agree with. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/48 "2009-01-30T04:27:42Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I’ve never heard this before. Can you point me in the direction of more information on this topic? [The Storm God in the Ancient and Near East](http://books.google.com/books?id=ZGjcLBYTUUgC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=The+Storm-God+in+the+Ancient+Near+East&source=web&ots=VwHCGPr8hA&sig=FZYPcYGGBLh9alFI4Dq__Ne486o&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA7,M1), handily readable online. [A brief review](http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/reviews/review152.htm) Just going through Wikipedia will reveal quite a bit, as well. If you look through [everything after the second quote in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10629114&postcount=119), you’ll see what we can pick up about the transformation of Yahweh and the pantheon around him into the sole deity of the Jewish people. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/49 "2009-01-30T17:13:43Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > [The Storm God in the Ancient and Near East](http://books.google.com/books?id=ZGjcLBYTUUgC&pg=PA2&lpg=PA2&dq=The+Storm-God+in+the+Ancient+Near+East&source=web&ots=VwHCGPr8hA&sig=FZYPcYGGBLh9alFI4Dq__Ne486o&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA7,M1), handily readable online. [A brief review](http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/reviews/review152.htm) > > Just going through Wikipedia will reveal quite a bit, as well. If you look through [everything after the second quote in this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10629114&postcount=119), you’ll see what we can pick up about the transformation of Yahweh and the pantheon around him into the sole deity of the Jewish people. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelJohnBertrand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@MichaelJohnBertrand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelJohnBertrand)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245/50 "2009-01-31T22:41:03Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Some time between the Old and New Testaments, God stopped drinking. Don’t you know there ain’t no Devil There’s just God when he’s drunk - Tom Waits, “Heart Attack and Vine” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-of-the-christian-god/483245.md?page=2)