# Evolution Theory **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 11, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518 "2003-05-11T17:37:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/141 "2003-05-18T02:46:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*It’s called the first amendment, specifically the establishment clause. A public school, acting under the auspices of the state, cannot endorse one religious view over another. Since creationism is theistic in nature, and is specifically derived from the Genesis story of creation, it would be illegal to present it as fact. Creationism is a _faith_ based view, not a scientific one. > > The Genesis story is not the only creation myth, btw, there are hundreds of others. If we allowed a presentation of the Genesis story we would also have to present Hindu, American Indian, Hmong, African tribal myths and any number of others to really be fair. \*\* Yes, and evolution is a faith based view also. No one saw one species become another, or the missing links have not been filled in. Evolution is only a guess, nothing more. The majority of the public grow weary of the assaults on their beliefs by the education system, and I think they will eventually win. If the schools are smart they will stop teaching science altogether and teach reading, writing, arithmetic and computers, maybe history and geography. If they keep insisting on teaching science guesses as true they will soon have very few students. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/142 "2003-05-18T02:54:00Z")
lekatt, I do hope you are joking. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/143 "2003-05-18T03:05:12Z")
Man, lekatt, there’s just no limit to the number of topics you will argue about vociferously while know nothing about them. I’d recommend doing some research before you spout off in the future. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/144 "2003-05-18T03:51:22Z")
> [@](#): > > No one saw one species become another, or the missing links have not been filled in. Evolution is only a guess, nothing more. The majority of the public grow weary of the assaults on their beliefs by the education system, and I think they will eventually win. This goes beyond silly. The first two sentences border on deliberate falsehood. It is possible that the luddites and religious cranks will cause the U.S. to abandon science in the classroom, but I hope not. In 144 years of trying, no effort to disprove Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection has been successful, while most of the efforts have resulted in providing ever more information that supports it. We have, indeed, [Observed Instances of Speciation](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html) and have [documented other speciation events](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html) (points that have been provided in multiple threads on this topic, in some of which I know that **lekatt** has participated). The “it’s just a belief” claim is only made by people who fail to understand (or who choose to ignore) the actual evidence that has been documented by scientists. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/145 "2003-05-18T16:36:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Yawn. > As I thought I made clear, the issue IS the matter of having laws against murder, and NOT our particular interpretation of whatever killings should be legal and what shouldn’t (be called murder and what shouldn’t). \*\* No, the issue is having laws against some methods/reasons of killing. Having “laws against murder” would involve proscriptions against having laws against killing. > [@](#): > > \*\*Sure, but no one would be able to understand what their complaints are anyway. If they say anything of substance, they’ve betrayed the Tao, and we can safely write them off as inconsistent. 🙂 \*\* Should I dignify this with a response? No, that would be betraying the Tao. I’ll say nothing instead. > [@](#): > > \*\*And you should pay more attention to how they are being used. \*\* I have been paying attention… but from your continued error, I see that you have not. Don’t claim I may have a splinter in my eye until you first unearth your head from the national forest it’s buried in. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/146 "2003-05-18T17:02:21Z")
> [@](#): > > No, the issue is having laws against some methods/reasons of killing. Having “laws against murder” would involve proscriptions against having laws against killing. Murder does not mean “laws against killing.” Murder is a particular social concept that is a little more complex than just plain “killing” because it’s killing associated with a disruption of the social order. That’s what you seem to be… I’m not sure you miss it, but you seem to get it and then forget it again. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2003, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/147 "2003-05-18T23:57:53Z")
**Lekatt** -Do you wish to defend your baseless assertion, or are you doing yet another drive by bashing of the theory of evolution? > [@](#): > > Evolution is only a guess, nothing more. The majority of the public grow weary of the assaults on their beliefs by the education system, and I think they will eventually win. Take this statement for example. It’s just plain old ignorant. You have no bases in fact or reason to support it. > [@](#): > > If the schools are smart they will stop teaching science altogether and teach reading, writing, arithmetic and computers, maybe history and geography. This is just a frightening scenario. Let me back up, do you know _anything at all about the theory of evolution?_ ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/148 "2003-05-19T00:05:06Z")
Whatever happened to Xema? ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/149 "2003-05-19T00:17:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Murder does not mean “laws against killing.” Murder is a particular social concept that is a little more complex than just plain “killing” because it’s killing associated with a disruption of the social order. \*\* No, it’s unlawful killing. Merely being disruptive of the social order doesn’t make something unlawful – unless disrupting the social order is actually illegal, in which case it is. ‘Murder’ is generally used in our society to refer to killing that takes place outside government-sanctioned roles, but that’s because our society doesn’t permit killing outside those roles. Societies where honor killings take place don’t allow killing outside of specific roles, either – but in some of those societies, being a dishonored family member _is_ a role in which killing is considered acceptable. Saying that murder cannot be allowed because it’s not in a society’s best interests to allow it is like saying that actions are illegal because they’re against the law. It’s a self-referential tautology that contains no meaningful assertions. Now, let’s either return to the subject at hand. If you insist, we can begin another thread, but we’ve already contaminated this one enough. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/150 "2003-05-19T00:25:10Z")
Lekatt has admitted to knowing nothing of [evolution](http://tinyurl.com/c2r5). If it doesn’t bother him - as he seems rather proud of his ignorance - why should it bother anyone else? > [@](#): > > Yes, I lack knowledge of everything in this world. I don’t know how it started, and I have precious little knowledge of how it operates. All I have to guide me is my own experience, which I believe is true. > > Love > Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/151 "2003-05-19T01:45:46Z")
I think it’s safe for you to continue being dense in this thread, since neither Xema nor lekatt seem to have anything more to say. You seem to have canned responses: did someone mention murder? I better start a diatribe about how it doesn’t make sense to have laws against it! But this is completely off the point. The question is not justifying laws against certain kinds of killing: the point is that societies without some concept of murder, some concept of how the unsanctioned killing of a citizen must be prevented, are unlikely to last long. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/152 "2003-05-19T02:11:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Coneivably, then, if a teacher continued to teach creationism after being ordered to desist by a court order, that teacher _could_ be charged with contempt of court. I doubt it would ever get that far, though. \*\* What would be much more likely is that the school system would advise the teacher that he was not following the approved curriculum. If such behavior continued, the school system would take whatever measures are usually taken in that system for insubordination. If the school system placed creationism or any similar religious indoctrination in the curriculum, someone could take that school system to task for violating the Constitution. Various legal procedures would likely ensue. Bear in mind that religious indoctrination is not the same as teaching about religion. If a history teacher, for example, teaches about ancient Greece, and explains what the religious beliefs of that culture were, that is not indoctrination. If the teacher tells his students that they should believe in Zeus and Hera, on the other hand, that is forbidden religious indoctrination. Many people confuse these two concepts. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/153 "2003-05-19T03:49:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MLS \* > \*\*What would be much more likely is that the school system would advise the teacher that he was not following the approved curriculum. If such behavior continued, the school system would take whatever measures are usually taken in that system for insubordination. > > If the school system placed creationism or any similar religious indoctrination in the curriculum, someone could take that school system to task for violating the Constitution. Various legal procedures would likely ensue. > > Bear in mind that religious indoctrination is not the same as teaching about religion. If a history teacher, for example, teaches about ancient Greece, and explains what the religious beliefs of that culture were, that is not indoctrination. If the teacher tells his students that they should believe in Zeus and Hera, on the other hand, that is forbidden religious indoctrination. Many people confuse these two concepts. \*\* Why would Creation be religious indoctrination? Prayer has been banned, but prayer in itself is not religious indoctrination. The word “God” in the pledge is not religious indoctrination. Is the next step attempting to remove “endowed by our Creator” from the Constitution. Schools were meant to teach truth, or so I thought. Evolution can be taught as one theory of man’s appearance on this earth, and Creation, a generic variety, can be taught as another theory, and even the theory of “Ancient Astronauts” has some merit. It could be taught also. Then the teaching would be better balanced and truthful as least. I know this will never happen, people believe to much in black or white. Meanwhile the children are given misinformation. ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/154 "2003-05-19T04:31:18Z")
First of all, prayer has not been banned in public schools. What’s forbidden is the requirement of prayer. Let me make it simpler. If Jane wants to bow her head and say grace before eating her peanut butter and jelly at lunchtime, no one may stop her. But if Sally does not want to pray, no one may compel her. Evolution is a fact. The details of how it works are theories. One difference about true science is that it continually evaluates and re-evaluates. Creationism is not supported by objective evidence. Evolution is. I don’t know what you mean that “creation” has been banned. Certainly as part of a literature or social studies class, a teacher might well discuss the creation stories of many cultures, including the Mayans, the Hebrews, the ancient Greeks, the Norse, the Chinese, and so on. That would not make any of them scientific fact and it would be intellectually dishonest ot represent them as such. The term “endowed by our Creator” was carefully chosen by the writers of the Constitution because it was religiously neutral. It does not say who, or what “our Creator” is. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/155 "2003-05-19T04:31:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Why would Creation be religious indoctrination? Because creationism is based entirely on _religious beliefs_ and absolutely not on any kind of science or actual knowledge. > [@](#): > > Prayer has been banned, but prayer in itself is not religious indoctrination. Of course not. Prayer has nothing to do with religion. That’s obvious. > [@](#): > > The word “God” in the pledge is not religious indoctrination. Having to state every day that there is a god isn’t indocrination? Ok, then I assume you wouldn’t mind your children having to say every day “One country in an universe without god”, for instance? > [@](#): > > Schools were meant to teach truth, or so I thought. That’s precisely why they don’t teach religious myths. > [@](#): > > Evolution can be taught as one theory of man’s appearance on this earth, , As it has been pointed out hundreds of times on this board, evolution isn’t a “theory” in the way you think. It’s a theory like gravitation is a theory. An explanatory system based on _facts_. You can’t dismiss evolution anymore than you can dismiss gravitation. Both are equally proved and observed. [/quote] and Creation, a generic variety can be taught as another theory, [/quote] What kind of general “theory” are you refering to? For instance the teacher could say : “but some unexplained and unknow surnatural phenomenon we know absolutely nothing about could have taken place”? Or, less generic : "gods could have greated life as it is now and created false evidences so that we would all be mislead into thinking that evolution is taking place while actually it is not (by the way, they could say the same about any scientific theory : for instance perhaps we’re just fooled into thinking there’s such a thing as, say, electicity though actually it doesn’t exist)? Or not generic : “I’m going to teach you how the world was created according to an alternate theory : Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva…etc…”? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/156 "2003-05-19T04:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Why would Creation be religious indoctrination? > Prayer has been banned, but prayer in itself is not religious indoctrination. The word “God” in the pledge is not religious indoctrination. Is the next step attempting to remove “endowed by our Creator” from the Constitution. > > Schools were meant to teach truth, or so I thought. > Evolution can be taught as one theory of man’s appearance on this earth, and Creation, a generic variety, can be taught as another theory, and even the theory of “Ancient Astronauts” has some merit. It could be taught also. Then the teaching would be better balanced and truthful as least. I know this will never happen, people believe to much in black or white. Meanwhile the children are given misinformation. \*\* [deep breath] I know I’m wasting my time, here, **lekatt** , but just a few points: !.) The phrase “endowed by our creator…” is in the Declaration of Independence NOT the US Constitution. 1. Creationism is not a theory, it’s a religious belief. 3.) “Theory” does not mean unproven. 4.) The “theory of ancient astronauts” has no merit whatever and it would be grossly irreponsible to teach it in school. 5.) Creationism _is_ religious indoctrination because it derives solely from a faith in one specific creation myth. It has no objective evidence to support it and, in fact, we have overwheming evidence to refute it (the specific literal Genesis account of creation, that is, not the existence of God _per se_ or even the notion that God created the universe. Those things are beyond the province of science). 6.) The word “God” in the pledge specifies monotheism, which leaves out not only atheima nd agnosticism (which I’m sure you have little regard for) but also polytheism and non-theistic religious models like Buddhism. For some strange reason I actually like you, **lekatt**. I admire your persistance and the integrity of your beliefs. I also think you have a good heart and that you mean well. But you really should try to inform yourself a little more about that which you post about. That’s what drives people crazy. It isn’t _what_ you believe, it’s your reckless diregard for objective fact. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/157 "2003-05-19T04:35:28Z")
> [@](#): > > atheima nd agnosticism or atheism and agnosticism, even… ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/158 "2003-05-19T13:46:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*[deep breath] I know I’m wasting my time, here, **lekatt** , but just a few points: > > !.) The phrase “endowed by our creator…” is in the Declaration of Independence NOT the US Constitution. > > 1. Creationism is not a theory, it’s a religious belief. > > 3.) “Theory” does not mean unproven. > > 4.) The “theory of ancient astronauts” has no merit whatever and it would be grossly irreponsible to teach it in school. > > 5.) Creationism _is_ religious indoctrination because it derives solely from a faith in one specific creation myth. It has no objective evidence to support it and, in fact, we have overwheming evidence to refute it (the specific literal Genesis account of creation, that is, not the existence of God _per se_ or even the notion that God created the universe. Those things are beyond the province of science). > > 6.) The word “God” in the pledge specifies monotheism, which leaves out not only atheima nd agnosticism (which I’m sure you have little regard for) but also polytheism and non-theistic religious models like Buddhism. > > For some strange reason I actually like you, **lekatt**. I admire your persistance and the integrity of your beliefs. I also think you have a good heart and that you mean well. But you really should try to inform yourself a little more about that which you post about. That’s what drives people crazy. It isn’t _what_ you believe, it’s your reckless diregard for objective fact. \*\* Where is the objective fact of evolution or the proof that it really happened the way taught in schools, no one has seen one species become another, not one person has observed evolution. A lot of bones have been gathered and assumptions made about them, that’s all you have. This country was founded on freedom of religion, not the banning of it. How can you say Creation is not a theory or that some theories are proven and some not. Doesn’t sound logical to me. Where is the honesty, integrity, and truth in science today. I grew up with these values being taught in school. I think the fanatics have taken over. You show little knowledge of what you speak of. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/159 "2003-05-19T16:55:01Z")
First off, **Xema** , You have entirely neglected the influence that Greco-Roman law had on the founding fathers. IIRC, democracy is one of those Greek things, not a particularly JC thing. There is a concept called “natural law” that was cited as the basis for parts of Roman legal code. Prohibitions against murder fall into the category of being against natural law. Second, **Lekatt** , when are you going to address the **observed** instances of speciation that you flatly deny have happened? Third, **Lekatt** , if I was you, I’d start wondering about the accuracy of those personal experiences of yours since they involve things like snowfall in New Orleans in July and a mythical naval career. I know that in your “personal experience” that these things happened, but where is the line between your personal experience and delusion? Shouldn’t somebody else have noticed the your existence on the USS Willette? Doesn’t it seem likely that if it snowed in New Orleans in July that someone besides you might have noticed? Since no one else seemed to notice these noteworthy events you should consider having your personal experience examined by trained professionals. Seriously. **ColorFlip** , your science teacher sounds pretty fishy. What’s your teacher’s degree in? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518/160 "2003-05-19T17:21:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Where is the objective fact of evolution or the proof that it really happened the way taught in schools, no one has seen one species become another, not one person has observed evolution. Are you actually suggesting that we have to _see_ something in order to accept it? Do you accept gravity? You don’t understand evolution well enough to make any sort of quality judgment. The statement “no one has seen one species become another” indicates a sever lack of knowledge of the topic. > [@](#): > > A lot of bones have been gathered and assumptions made about them, that’s all you have. You know, in order to have a _valid_ opinion about it, don’t you think you should at least know what the science is? > [@](#): > > How can you say Creation is not a theory or that some theories are proven and some not. Do you understand what scientists mean when they use the word ‘theory’? I don’t think you do. Creation _isn’t_ a scientific theory-how do you test for it? What predictions does it make? > [@](#): > > Where is the honesty, integrity, and truth in science today. This is just ridiculous. How can you judge something when you don’t know anything about it? > [@](#): > > You show little knowledge of what you speak of. Again, this is absurd as you probably couldn’t give us a correct definition of what evolution is, of what natural selection is, or what the difference is between ‘micro’ and ‘macro’ evolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-theory/174518.md?page=9)