# Evolution versus selective breeding **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 13, 2021, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266 "2021-11-13T02:24:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/21 "2021-11-13T15:20:37Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Also not a correct definition. True, but I used it in the sense of the claim that the characteristics of the two populations would remain stable. Perhaps a misuse - sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/22 "2021-11-13T15:46:30Z")
Humans have practiced accidental selective breeding > **[The Accidental Grain - How Rye Evolved Its Way Into Our Diet — In Defense of...](https://www.indefenseofplants.com/blog/2016/2/2/the-accidental-grain-how-rye-evolved-its-way-into-our-diet)** This indicates that any border between “natural” evolution and “artificial” selection is pretty blurry. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/23 "2021-11-13T15:51:38Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Dogs have not evolved. This is just not true. The primary definition of evolution is change in allele frequency in a population. This has indisputably occurred in domesticated dogs. Dogs arose from wolves, and are still considered the same species as wolves. But dogs are clearly _different_ from wolves, both genetically and phenotypically. This is still evolution, even if it has occurred through interaction with humans and through deliberate artificial selection by humans. > [@Crane](#): > > There has been no speciation, so were all dogs released and allowed to breed naturally, the population morphology would revert to some common mutt whose characteristics are suited to the current environment. Not all evolution is speciation. Separated populations of one species between which there is limited gene flow (dogs and wolves) _evolve_ differently. The allele frequencies in the domestic dog population are obviously very significantly different from the wolf population, notwithstanding the fact that they are still considered one species that _could_ still interbreed (at least there is no apparent genetic barrier, in the case of the smallest dogs there’s probably a physical barrier). ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/24 "2021-11-13T16:00:16Z")
But dogs and wolves are still the same species and freely interbreed. It has been observed that unmanaged dog populations revert to something like the Pariah dog, a sturdy mid sized mutt. The indication is that wolves and dogs may both just be variants of a common ancestor. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/25 "2021-11-13T16:07:31Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Nobody can stop you from using words in whatever eccentric way you want, but the entire field of evolutionary biology is decisively clear that that when humans do it, we call it artificial selection. And not just in evolutionary biology. There’s clearly one colloquial meaning to artificial vs natural that means something like with/without human intervention or influence. But I think this part of what @Chronos said is a very valid point, which is not just semantics: > [@Chronos](#): > > humans are part of the other organism’s environment In population genetic terms, evolution under selection operates under the same mechanisms whether the selection is natural or artificial. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/26 "2021-11-13T16:09:40Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > freely interbreed Really? That does not mean the same thing as _can_ interbreed. In any event, the frequency with which wolves and dogs now interbreed doesn’t matter. The allele frequencies of many phenotypically significant loci among modern dogs are very different from the allele frequencies of the ancestral wolf population from which they arose. By definition, they have evolved. Even if you want to add in the allele frequencies of modern wolves and consider dogs+wolves a single interbreeding population, it makes no difference, since the population of dogs now vastly outnumbers wolves. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/27 "2021-11-13T16:16:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Really? [Yes](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrE19Ey5I9hYAMAxBhXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1636848818/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fpetpetbuy.com%2fblogs%2fnews%2fwolf-dog-hybrid-breeds/RK=2/RS=OFpHGu.stBl0RT5yQ7SyBIKrCQk-) take your pick ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/28 "2021-11-13T16:17:08Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The indication is that wolves and dogs may both just be variants of a common ancestor. Of course. In fact, modern dogs were recently reclassified to the same species as modern wolves. _Canis familiaris_ was changed to _Canis lupus familiaris_. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/29 "2021-11-13T16:18:40Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Of course. In fact, modern dogs were recently reclassified to the same species as modern wolves. Thanks, you make my point ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/30 "2021-11-13T16:21:30Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > you make my point Not at all. The point you made that I was disputing was > [@Crane](#): > > Dogs have not evolved. The correct point that dogs & wolves share a common ancestor, and the recent scientific consensus that in fact the dog & wolf populations have not diverged sufficiently that they should even be considered two separate species, does not remotely imply that dogs have not _evolved_ since they arose from an ancestral wolf population. Evolution is not synonymous with speciation. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/31 "2021-11-13T16:28:34Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > [Yes](https://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrE19Ey5I9hYAMAxBhXNyoA;_ylu=Y29sbwNiZjEEcG9zAzIEdnRpZAMEc2VjA3Ny/RV=2/RE=1636848818/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fpetpetbuy.com%2fblogs%2fnews%2fwolf-dog-hybrid-breeds/RK=2/RS=OFpHGu.stBl0RT5yQ7SyBIKrCQk-) take your pick Ok, let me spell it out for you. In population genetic terms, “freely interbreed” means no significant loss of gene flow between subpopulations. It means they _do_ interbreed frequently, not that they _can_ interbreed. I’ve pointed out to you the fact that dogs were recently reclassified to the same species as modern wolves. Of course I know they can interbreed. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/32 "2021-11-13T16:29:16Z")
Then I misused the term common ancestor. Wolves and dogs are just variant populations of the same species. They may have evolved as a group, but not as a result of artificial selection. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/33 "2021-11-13T16:31:12Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Of course I know they can interbreed. OK, then what nit are we picking? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/34 "2021-11-13T16:31:31Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Wolves and dogs are just variant populations of the same species. Correct, that’s the modern scientific consensus. But again, this does not lead to the conclusion that they have “not evolved”. Once again, the word “evolution” is not synonymous with the word “speciation”. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/35 "2021-11-13T16:35:32Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > “not evolved”. Aha, so I should have better qualified my statement. How about - the current ‘breeds’ of dog are simply unstable variant populations. They did not evolve. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/36 "2021-11-13T16:40:03Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Aha, so I should have better qualified my statement. > > How about - the current ‘breeds’ of dog are simply unstable variant populations. They did not evolve. Well, no. Even if you hypothesize all humans vanishing and a reversion to free interbreeding among domesticated dogs, the “mutt” result is not (genetically or phenotypically) identical to the ancestral wolf population from which they arose. Allele frequencies in the population have changed significantly. By definition, they have evolved. If you want a specific example - one of the significant ways in which they have evolved (across most if not all breeds) is neoteny. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/37 "2021-11-13T16:59:19Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > So we’d have to work a _long_ time to do the same things that natural selection does over millions of years. This is important, and worth fleshing out. The major difference with artificial selection is that the selection is extremely strong compared to most natural selection (not without exception, obviously sometimes there are quite drastic environmental changes such as asteroid impacts). So what it _can_ do, artificial selection does very quickly. But selection can only act on the genetic variation that’s available, it cannot _cause_ new mutations to arise - that’s Lamarckism. So artificial selection operates on the standing genetic variation that already existed within the natural starting population. Artificial selection can change some aspects of phenotype very quickly - turning a wolf into a Chihuahua in a few generations. But then it hits a brick wall. Any further change by artificial selection would mean waiting for _new_ mutations to arise by chance. And that just won’t happen in timescales that humans are interested in. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/38 "2021-11-13T16:59:22Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Well, no. Even if you hypothesize all humans vanishing and a reversion to free interbreeding among domesticated dogs, the “mutt” result is not (genetically or phenotypically) identical to the ancestral wolf population from which they arose. Allele frequencies in the population have changed significantly. By definition, they have evolved. To chime in on this, even the poster-child (chick?) of islandised speciation, the galapagos finches, can (and do ) interbreed. I’m sure we still would assert that they have _evolved_ from the initial population. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/39 "2021-11-13T17:05:42Z")
I was hasty to imply that the Pariah mutt is a reversion to the original. There is no indication that dog family has evolved. The allele frequency has not changed. The basic allele schema have not changed. The same variant paths are available today as were at the time of domestication. That is illustrated by the Pariah mutt. If dog variants had evolved they would be stable. They are not. Perhaps you are referring to a background evolution that is related to, but not the direct result of, human intervention. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2021, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266/40 "2021-11-13T17:16:44Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > The allele frequency has not changed. Cite, please. This is ludicrous on its face. You think the dramatic change in lifestyle from wild wolf to domesticated dog has resulted in _no change_ in allele frequency in the modern dog population when compared to the ancestral wolf population from which dogs arose? > [@Crane](#): > > The basic allele schema have not changed. > [@Crane](#): > > The same variant paths are available today > [@Crane](#): > > If dog variants had evolved they would be stable. > [@Crane](#): > > a background evolution I don’t know what you mean by these things. This is not standard terminology. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolution-versus-selective-breeding/954266.md?page=3)