Evolution

But it seems you are contesting that it could have happened via chance. Thus my earlier post.
**

I take it you missed Irishman’s second paragraph:

By the way, here’s something to think about, for those who insist that the odds against life occurring are so utterly improbable:

Suppose the probability of a hypothetical event occurring is only 1 in 10,000 (.0001%). Not terribly likely, right? Now, suppose there are 10,000 opportunities for the event to occur. The probability that the event will occur at least once is actually around 63.2%!

(That’s 1 - (.9999[sup]10,000[/sup]), assuming independent trials, for those keeping score at home)

So, what’s the point? Even given low probabilities of a given event occurring on a single attempt, multiple opportunities allow for drastically improved probabilities. The odds of proto-life forming, given a single opportunity, may be very low, but if you dump the ingredients for Primordial Soup over 75% of the earth’s surface, cook and stir for 1 billion years, suddenly the odds become very favorable.

Which is essentially the point MEBuckner just made.

1 / 10,000 is .01%, not .0001%

Getting off the chlorophyll/hemoglobin subject…

Nothing we can examine. Feel free to speculate.
-or-
What’s north of the north pole?

But you certainly implied a connection by starting a thread about “evolution” and your first order of business was to question the Big Bang. Having seen several evolution/creationist discussions here, Big Bang is often trotted out by creationists as a starting point for evolution, even though the Theory of Evolution only applies to how life has changed AFTER it began.

It wasn’t 100% random. Science shows that it was the result of possibility within the framework of the universe’s natural laws.

BTW, it’s not quite correct to “believe” in science (it’s not faith). People should “accept” a scientific theory/law or not.

Irrelevant. The building of a church is not the same thing as the cosmology of the universe. The “watch requires a watchmaker” may seem to make sense, but there is no scientific evidence that the universe requires a universemaker. There may be a universemaker, and it’s 100% fine to have faith in that, but IMHO, it cannot be a proven fact.

No, those scientists were not Creationists as far as I know (but I’m not familiar with all of them you listed). Einstein was a pantheist for one (the whole of the universe was equivolent to God for him). Certainly, the scientific community does not accept Creationists’ claims of a young Earth, etc. The scientific community should have no scientific opinion on whether God exists or not. Personal opinions are fine.

A religious scientists is not necessarily a contradiction. Religion and science speak to two different subjects. Science is a method to explain the way the universe begins. Religion is a journey of human spirituality. You do not consult the Bible to develop an equation describing how an object moves in a gravitational field, nor do you turn to science for guidance on the unknowable/unanswerable.

Sorry if my responses are a little snippy…these kind of discussions get that way. My overall point is that science is the best way to understand the way the universe works and that faith is our best way to establish a connection to the unknowable.

There is a ton of supporting scientific evidence (facts) for Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution (theory = scientifically supportable explanation). But neither theory says anything about whether God is behind it all or not. That is left to personal belief.

[Moderator Hat: ON]

As Dex said, above:

However, that has not happened. As such, I’m moving this thread to Great Debates.


David B, SDMB Moderator

[Moderator Hat: OFF]

Both sides of the argument might be interested in this site where you can download a program that simulates evolution on your PC. It shows computer generated walking machines but it’s easy to imagine it happening for real with hemoglobin, eyes, whatever. Very interesting.

I know that these discussions have been made to death, but I’ve never thrown in my two cents, and I wanted to give it a shot.

JubilationTCornpone… let’s take a look at that name. By my count, 19 letters, both upper-case and lower-case. What are the odds that you’d pick exactly that combination? Well, my statistics are a little rusty, but it seems that you could have picked any one of 52 characters to put in any one place (excluding punctuation). That seems to me to be (1/52)^19 = 2.49 x 10^-33. I’m not even going to try and come up with an analogy for a number that infinitesimal. I’ve heard things about the odds of baseballs being in one precise location in the solar system, or atoms in the Astrodome, or other silly things. Basically, we can call that chance nil. The chances of you picking exactly that combination are nil.

Aha, you exclaim with glee, there’s a difference here–the sequence of letters is not random. You work within a framework, the framework of the English language. Therefore, the combination “Jubilation” is much more likely than “fhIjdkeLZo” because the first is “acceptable” in English; it’s an actual word. You’re working under a governing set of rules… rules which might be somewhat relaxed in this situation (how often does one see the word Cornpone anyways??), but there are still SOME rules. So, therefore, your choice of name ISN’T random; it was governed by a set of rules, which implies intelligence.

The situation is SIMILAR in chemistry, but not the same. There ARE rules in the chemistry that govern which amino acids come together. Just like above, there are certain patterns which are more “acceptable” than others. Some combinations seem to just WORK, i.e., they bond and they like it that way. Other combinations suck… a bond may form, but it’s so labile that it’s just as likely to blow apart as it is to exist. This is especially true when you get into the secondary, tertiary, and quarternary structure of proteins. Certain things are more likely to occur… we coin phrases such as “like attracts like,” meaning that amino acids we term “hydrophilic” are going to twist the forming protein to be with other hydrophilic amino acids.

However, the presence of a simple system of rules does NOT imply intelligence, anthropormorphism, or anything other than some simple principles. Principles such as electromagnetic attraction and repulsion, hydrogen bonding, steric hinderance, etc. No one seems to contend that water and oil separate by the grace of God; people are content knowing that they repel because they’re different (polar vs. nonpolar). Why do we need to invoke God to explain these combinations of amino acids?

So, in short, combinations of amino acids are not RANDOM, as the statistics imply. That makes formation of proteins much more probable.

I’m going to point out one other thing… do people realize how BIG Avogadro’s Number is? 6.022 x 10^23. That’s a tremendous number. Suppose we have a primordial with 1 gram of aspartic acid and 1 gram of glutamic acid. That’s not a whole lot, is it? I mean, 1 piddling gram of each? Please. But at the molecular level, that’s a huge amount! In terms of molecules, we have 4.52 x 10^21 molecules of aspartic acid and 4.09 x 10^21 molecules of glutamic acid. The odds of the two coming together are still astronomical… now they’re just astronomically high!

These scenarios are NOT a stretch; they’ve been done before. God Bless Dr. Stanley Miller.

Quix

Most of the posts I am reading appear to presume that evolution and creation are in opposition.

Creation is therefore Evolution is not. Or
Evolution is therefore Creation is not.

The truth is that Evolution does not lead to omission of a Creator God. For example, the laws of Nature or Physics as they are we got a certain result (which now necessitates my clipping my fingernails). However, why couldn’t these laws of nature be the work of Creator God and that such a God knew they would work to the benefit of “life”.

In other words it is not outrageous to reconciliate these two Greate Debates to say that Evolution can be the tool with which God chose to create life. After all These two factions Creation and Evolution were doing well together on their own before we (huMANs) came along and assumed them incompatible. Let’s annul the divorce we forced upon this couple.

BTW: we seem to be emphasizing proteins way to much in this debate. Lipids, and the ability to partition ions via membranes, is a much more likely beginning than busting out with a hemoglobin molecule. If we are going to talk about Creation and evolution (for real) we should take this debate to an earlier time… when life was formed. That way we can discuss theEvolution in terms of the CREATION of life.

Jim and Tammy defy both evolution and creationism. Let’s face it, they could not have evolved and no god would hve created them.

Ah, a creationist. Could you clear something up for me?

How do you explain protein homology?

-Ben

Incidentally, to address your questions:

  1. I don’t know what was before the Big Bang; I am not a physicist. My understanding is that asking “what was before the Big Bang” is like asking “what is south of the South Pole?” Do you have an alternative scientific hypothesis you would like to promote?

  2. “What are the chances that the few that make cells are going to be made?” That’s a straw man. No scientist working on abiogenesis claims that a fully functioning minimal genome organism arose by chance. If you look at their actual claims- that a ribozyme or collection of ribozymes capable of self-replication arose by chance- then the chances are quite good. It appears that many of the “millions” of combinations are, in fact, functional.

There is a thread here named “Books for Fundies” that you might find helpful. Your questions have been answered several times before, and I think it’s a little unfair for you to demand answers of us which could be found in books, if only you read them.

-Ben

Wow- all this time I’ve been reading textbooks like Protein Evolution, but if I really wanted to become educated, I should have read “Beyond Belief.”

Nicoli, have you read any textbooks on evolutionary biology? Have you ever read any pro-evolution works?

-Ben

Nicoli, can you understand now why reading “The Case for Christ” doesn’t make you well educated on a complex topic like the creation/evolution debate?

-Ben

I’m afraid that this is completely wrong. One always finds small changes in the proteins of different species.

Let’s look at hemoglobin in more detail. Jawless fish like lampreys diverged from the other vertebrates very early, and lampreys retain the single type of hemoglobin of the last common ancestor of lampreys and jawed vertebrates. Adult jawed vertebrates generally have two kinds of hemoglobin, alpha and beta. These two molecules are slightly different, and can cooperate with each other to bind oxygen more efficiently than lamprey hemoglobin can. Many vertebrate species also possess still more kinds of hemoglobin for fetuses. Fetal hemoglobin has a slightly higher affinity for oxygen than adult hemoglobin can, so that the fetus’ blood can absorb oxygen from the mother. So you see, we actually have two different classes of hemoglobin:

orthologous hemoglobins serve the same function in different species, despite having lots of mutations which make them different from one another.

paralogous hemoglobins serve slightly different functions in the same species (like adult vs. fetal hemoglobin) and many (but not all) of their differences serve to fine-tune the functioning of the protein.

Now, there is a process called genetic recombination by which segments of chromosomes get swapped back and forth. Sometimes this process can cause an unequal swap, in which one chromosome gets a little more genetic material than it gave back to the other chromosome. If this happens in the region where the hemoglobin genes lie, then one chromosome can end up lacking a hemoglobin gene (leading to nonviable offspring, which die) and the other ends up with two hemoglobin genes. Those genes can then accumulate mutations separately in order to grow to serve different functions, and this is how the original hemoglobin of ancient jawless fish got turned into the six or eight hemoglobins of humans.

What one expects from this process is that the two duplicated genes will end up right next to each other. If, after they diverge a bit, one of them gets copied again, that copy will sit next to the original. The physical closeness of two hemoglobin genes in the genome will, then, reflect their degree of genetic relatedness- and this is precisely what one sees. One also expects that sometimes the copied genes won’t take root, and will end up accumulating deactivating mutations; scientists call these failed copies “pseudogenes.” Since these pseudogenes aren’t under selectional pressure, they accumulate mutations faster than regular genes.

All in all, you can’t read a textbook on molecular genetics or protein evolution without being overwhelmed by the fact that all the evidence fits evolution like a glove. That’s why I suggest that if you’re going to say that all the experts who wrote those textbooks are wrong, you might want to familiarize yourself with the actual evidence first.

-Ben

Where are you getting these numbers?

Look, to make your argument, you have to have two numbers:

  1. The total number of possible protein sequences.

  2. The total number of sequences that can serve to carry oxygen.

Thus far, I only see at most one of those numbers- the other is just assertion on your part.

The fact is that paralogous proteins with radically different functions exist. That alone proves that the chances of creating a functional protein by chance aren’t too low.

-Ben

Ben, I wouldn’t expect to hear back from our creationist friend, Nicoli. He hasn’t posted since those two messages early on.

Why does that not surprise me?

-Ben

That was just an example. As I said in earlier postings, I don’t have a copy of Asimov’s essay on hand. However, I do recall it being some humongous number.

I wasn’t questioning the number from Asimov so much as your factor of 10. Like I said, in order to claim, on the basis of probability, that evolution is impossible, you can’t just say that it’s unlikely for hemoglobin to form. You have to prove that it’s unlikely for mutation to generate any protein which is capable of carrying oxygen at all, and, for that matter, you also have to prove that no form of life could exist without an oxygen carrying molecule. The latter is clearly false, but even granting that your argument could validly be applied to other proteins, the evidence indicates that it is very easy for mutations to lead to proteins with new functions. Heck, frameshift mutations can completely randomize the sequence of a protein, and sometimes even those completely random sequences can serve a useful function and evolve to get better at it.

-Ben

From The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins:

before the big bang? there was god, and he made the big bang, and then the laws of physics took over. we can always substitute the word ‘god’ for ‘we don’t know’. it’s quicker to say. what happened to nicoli? he started this thread and then took off.