# Evolutionary Advantage to Hearing Octaves as "The Same?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 12, 2007, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567 "2007-03-12T05:44:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567/161 "2007-03-15T16:21:16Z")
[QUOTE=RaftPeople] Do you have any data, other than your own personal opinion to support the following 2 positions that you are presenting: 1. Hearing octaves as similar is or was valuable 2. Hearing fifths as similar while ignoring the similarity of octaves could not possibly be valuable and therefore would never arise [/QUOTE] The problem is, there is no data supporting the possibility that hearing fifths as “the same” could be valuable or even possible, either. So far as we know, no creature with auditory capabilities hears in this manner, so all that can be done is speculate. And all we can conclude is that , yeah, it _could_ be possible, given some as-yet undefined set of circumstances, which, again, so far as we know, have not yet arisen, nor is there any necessary potential for them to do so. That’s the problem with hypotheticals like this: they are not falsifiable; you can really only show that they can occur by finding a creature which actually exhibits the trait about which you are speculating. If such a creature has not been found, then nothing is proven either way. At best, you can remain agnostic about possibilities. Evolutionary theory is predictive only so far as mechanisms go, or in demonstrating how a particular known trait may have arisen (“if trait X evolved from precursor x, then we should be able to find evidence of x[sub]1[/sub], x[sub]2[/sub], etc.”). It is _not_ predictive in terms of being able to pin down future or “alternate reality” pathways for specific traits. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2007, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567/162 "2007-03-15T16:44:40Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] The problem is, there is no data supporting the possibility that hearing fifths as “the same” could be valuable or even possible, either. So far as we know, no creature with auditory capabilities hears in this manner, so all that can be done is speculate. And all we can conclude is that , yeah, it _could_ be possible, given some as-yet undefined set of circumstances, which, again, so far as we know, have not yet arisen, nor is there any necessary potential for them to do so. That’s the problem with hypotheticals like this: they are not falsifiable; you can really only show that they can occur by finding a creature which actually exhibits the trait about which you are speculating. If such a creature has not been found, then nothing is proven either way. At best, you can remain agnostic about possibilities. Evolutionary theory is predictive only so far as mechanisms go, or in demonstrating how a particular known trait may have arisen (“if trait X evolved from precursor x, then we should be able to find evidence of x[sub]1[/sub], x[sub]2[/sub], etc.”). It is _not_ predictive in terms of being able to pin down future or “alternate reality” pathways for specific traits. [/QUOTE] But **Brain Wreck** and some others on this thread have made the claim that it is _impossible_ for a creature like the one we’re discussing to evolve, under any circumstances whatsoever. I was asked by one of them (I think **Brain Wreck** ) to say something about how such a creature _could_ evolve. And that is why I offered a hypothetical situation–because I was asked to provide one. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567/163 "2007-03-16T00:37:13Z")
[QUOTE=RaftPeople] First Point You stated that it is essentially impossible to develop an altered view of reality, [/quote] No, I said absolutely nothing of the sort. > [@](#): > > So you have stated your opinion, now you need to back it up with facts. There is a certain irony in a request from people making positive assertion and failing to provide any facts at all, but then requesting that someone disprove that assertion. That’s argument from ignorance. I don’t need to prove that your position is false, you need to prove that yours is true. > [@](#): > > Just because you say it’s unfavorable does not make it unfavorable under all conditions. It’s entirely possible that hearing octaves as similar, while a side effect of our physiology, is not valuable. It’s also possible it’s very valuable. It’s also possible that Elvis is still alive and working in a Denny’s somewhere, and I say this without a hint of sarcasm. There is a nonzero probability in the truth of that statement, yet we need to ask ourselves what is really a meaningful number for a statement of that nature. > [@](#): > > Do you have any data, other than your own personal opinion to support the following 2 positions that you are presenting: > > 1. Hearing octaves as similar is or was valuable Never said that, so not going to bother. I will ask you at this point not to characterize my posts, as you are entirely misinterpreting them, attributing statements to me that I didn’t say, and then addressing them before I can even correct you. That would be a strawman argument. > [@](#): > > Hearing fifths as similar while ignoring the similarity of octaves could not possibly be valuable and therefore would never arise I have already addressed this to the limits of my patience, and the only response has been logical fallacy, mischaracterization of my words, and a fundamental lack of understanding of the subject matter. I think I will not pursue this any longer. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567/164 "2007-03-16T00:53:50Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] No, I said absolutely nothing of the sort. [/quote] You did in fact _say_ something of the sort, though I think you might not have _meant_ it. You said: > [@](#): > > "But still, this does not mean they are viewing an altered perception of the world… just a restricted perception. I maintain the contrary case to be effectively impossible … that an animal would perceive fifths are more similar than octaves, or thirds more similar than fifths… because it contradicts the principles of physics, physiology, and evolution. (To be clear: The ellipses are in the original text.) So taking a look at the first couple of lines of the above… You say that the example on hand is not a case of a viewing of an altered perception of the world, and then you go on to say that you maintain the contrary case to be effectively impossible. The case contrary to what? The only antecedent to “case” available in that passage is the case in which an animal does not view an altered perception of the world, but rather only a restricted perception. So, taking the contrary of that case, we find that you said, in effect, that you believe it to be effectively impossible that a case arise wherein an animal views, not just a restricted perception of the world, but an _altered_ perception. I’d say that’s “something of the sort” of RaftPeople’s paraphrase “It is essentially impossible to develop an altered view of reality.” > [@](#): > > There is a certain irony in a request from people making positive assertion and failing to provide any facts at all, but then requesting that someone disprove that assertion. That’s argument from ignorance. I don’t need to prove that your position is false, you need to prove that yours is true. You have made a positive assertion that something is impossible, or at least “effectively impossible.” You have asked me to disprove it by providing you with a hypothetical case in which it could be false. You have said afterwards that my hypothetical failed to disprove your claim. Are you, then, “arguing from ignorance” as well? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2007, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567/165 "2007-03-16T04:27:07Z")
[QUOTE=Brain Wreck] No, I said absolutely nothing of the sort. [/quote] > [@Brain Wreck](#): > > “But still, this does not mean they are viewing an altered perception of the world… just a restricted perception. I maintain the contrary case to be effectively impossible … that an animal would perceive fifths are more similar than octaves, or thirds more similar than fifths… because it contradicts the principles of physics, physiology, and evolution.” Let’s review that again: **“I maintain the contrary case to be effectively impossible”** > [@Brain Wreck](#): > > There is a certain irony in a request from people making positive assertion and failing to provide any facts at all, but then requesting that someone disprove that assertion. That’s argument from ignorance. I don’t need to prove that your position is false, you need to prove that yours is true. How about we do something constructive about this. You attempt to prove that it’s “impossible” and we will attempt to prove it’s “possible”. We might all learn something. Are you interested? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-advantage-to-hearing-octaves-as-the-same/395567.md?page=8)