# Evolutionary origin of belief in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 24, 2013, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587 "2013-04-24T12:56:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/41 "2013-05-01T22:14:03Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Quantum theory states consciousness is a quality of everything. It is the building blocks of the Universe and I believe that. Cite for this, please. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/42 "2013-05-01T23:23:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Cite for this, please. Don’t bother asking; There is no credible cite he could provide, cuz QM doesn’t say that, although some New-age types are keen to project their beliefs into that particular area of science. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/43 "2013-05-01T23:25:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I would have to say yes though I don’t know the process. Quantum theory > states consciousness is a quality of everything. It is the building blocks of > the Universe and I believe that. The brain is not capable of anything but > waves of magnetic energy. Something has to interpret that energy and > that is consciousness. All of this is false, more or less. The statement about consciousness, about the building blocks of the universe, the statement about the brain and “magnetic energy.” QM nor any other field of science does not say these things ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2013, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/44 "2013-05-01T23:54:21Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > All of this is false, more or less. The statement about consciousness, about the building blocks of the universe, the statement about the brain and “magnetic energy.” QM nor any other field of science does not say these things Oh how I hate to do this but I must. > **[Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics - Foundations of Physics](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018897710599)** > > For a quantum mechanical measurement to be complete, John von Neumann and others assumed that a conscious observer must be present to affect a reduction or collapse of the state function. Also, William James believed that the influence of... ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/45 "2013-05-02T03:53:33Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Oh how I hate to do this but I must. > > [Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics | Foundations of Physics](http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1018897710599#page-1) I’m not paying 40 bucks just to see how you’ve misunderstood yet another scientific theory. ---
**Author:** ![pjnlsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e8c25b/32.png) [@pjnlsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjnlsn)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/46 "2013-05-02T04:22:14Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Oh how I hate to do this but I must. > > [Consciousness and Quantum Mechanics | Foundations of Physics](http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A%3A1018897710599#page-1) Given the abstract nature of Quantum mechanics, interpretations of the mathematical models are common. Some people believe that the reason why reality on the human scale is definite, while reality on the scale of Quantum Physics is less so, is because consciousness itself creates the stability. Other people believe things such like that the relatively indefinite nature of QM is caused by interference from other very small particles in other universes, which they suggest exist alongside our own. You have your own beliefs about it. And many more stranger and also more conservative interpretations of QM exist. But none of these are proven; They are mere beliefs. QM is a collection of mathematical models, and is proven, unlike said interpretations. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/47 "2013-05-02T08:48:06Z")
> [@pjnlsn](#): > > Given the abstract nature of Quantum mechanics, interpretations of the mathematical models are common. > > Some people believe that the reason why reality on the human scale is definite, while reality on the scale of Quantum Physics is less so, is because consciousness itself creates the stability. Other people believe things such like that the relatively indefinite nature of QM is caused by interference from other very small particles in other universes, which they suggest exist alongside our own. You have your own beliefs about it. And many more stranger and also more conservative interpretations of QM exist. > > But none of these are proven; They are mere beliefs. > > QM is a collection of mathematical models, and is proven, unlike said interpretations. Yes, science is full of interpretations and theories none of which has been proven. One of great mysteries of life is consciousness, no one knows what it is or where it is. Many answers lie in this concept. But science will never progress until consciousness is understood as being spiritual. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/48 "2013-05-02T14:22:36Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Yes, science is full of interpretations and theories none of which has been proven. > One of great mysteries of life is consciousness, no one knows what it is or where it is. Many answers lie in this concept. But science will never progress until consciousness is understood as being spiritual. None??.. On the contrary. Science has a very long track record of things “proven”. Far better than that of theology. You are quickly running out of places for god to hide. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/49 "2013-05-02T18:51:10Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > None??.. > > On the contrary. Science has a very long track record of things “proven”. Far better than that of theology. You are quickly running out of places for god to hide. God sometimes called consciousness can’t hide, He is everywhere. We are consciousness and not brains. Science will understand one day. When you really think about it there you are as consciousness. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/50 "2013-05-02T20:00:28Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > We are consciousness and not brains. Science will understand one day. If we cut out part of your brain and threw it into a bonfire, would you suddenly lose the ability to see? If we destroyed another part of your brain, and another, would you get steadily worse? And if we then destroyed that brain altogether – what, exactly, do you believe would happen? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/51 "2013-05-02T20:58:26Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > If we cut out part of your brain and threw it into a bonfire, would you suddenly lose the ability to see? If we destroyed another part of your brain, and another, would you get steadily worse? And if we then destroyed that brain altogether – what, exactly, do you believe would happen? Actually no matter how many pieces of my brain you destroyed nothing would happen to me at all. I am my consciousness and not my body. It is true I would not be able to function in the physical world without my body but I would still be fully aware and functioning in the spiritual world where I was created. I only need a body for the physical. This is not news, people have out of body experiences all the time. But I do realize most scientists don’t believe it until it happens to them. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/52 "2013-05-02T21:14:13Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Actually no matter how many pieces of my brain you destroyed nothing would happen to me at all. Soooo…have there been any incidents in the past that might have done damage to your physical brain but didn’t affect you mentally? ---
**Author:** ![thicksantorum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@thicksantorum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thicksantorum)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/54 "2013-05-03T06:43:22Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > God sometimes called consciousness can’t hide, He is everywhere. > > We are consciousness and not brains. Science will understand one day. > When you really think about it there you are as consciousness. Here’s a retort that is just as meaningful: “Whatever.” ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/55 "2013-05-03T13:03:09Z")
> [@NotfooledbyW](#): > > There is an excellent book on this topic. > > “The Evolution of God” by Robert Wright That is a great book. I would add to it **“The Age of Transformation” by Karen Armstrong** , a former nun and now-well-regarded academic. In both books, they discuss a period - often referred to as the Axial Age in academia - which occurred around 700 - 400 BCE around the world. The basic premise is that this appears to be a period where a new level of self-awareness emerged related to oneself and being human. As humans were casting about for ways to ground this new level of awareness, it manifested in religions, philosophical thought (Armstrong argues that Socrates represents how the Greeks/Western Europe wrestled with this new awareness). Really interesting reading - both books are quite well done. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587/56 "2013-05-03T15:42:52Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > That is a great book. I would add to it **“The Age of Transformation” by Karen Armstrong** , a former nun and now-well-regarded academic. > > In both books, they discuss a period - often referred to as the Axial Age in academia - which occurred around 700 - 400 BCE around the world. The basic premise is that this appears to be a period where a new level of self-awareness emerged related to oneself and being human. As humans were casting about for ways to ground this new level of awareness, it manifested in religions, philosophical thought (Armstrong argues that Socrates represents how the Greeks/Western Europe wrestled with this new awareness). > > Really interesting reading - both books are quite well done. I have not read the whole book, but what I have read is right on. The evolution continues in our generation. It is exciting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evolutionary-origin-of-belief-in-god/656587.md?page=2)