# EVs: the likely field emerges. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396 "2009-08-23T16:44:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/21 "2009-08-27T03:32:00Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Some comparison measures: > > A gallon of gas has about 32.91 kilowatt-hours of energy. > > The Chevy Volt has a 16 kilowatt-hour battery, which is supposedly good for 40 miles on battery alone. But only 8.8 are usable. That comes out to about 220 watt-hours to drive a mile. Let’s round to a nice 150 watt-hours per kilometer. > > As for the Joule, I’ll believe their numbers when I see them. A 400 km range in an electric car? That’s 10 times better than what the Volt can do on battery alone. A weight of 945 kg? The Nissan Leaf’s battery weighs 200 kg and give it less than half the claimed range of the Joule. Since they look to be similar in form factor and wind resistance and whatnot, let’s double the size to get up to the Joule’s range, and call it 400 kg. Leaving 545 kg for the weight of the car. Not bloody likely. > > The Nissan Leaf’s numbers look more reasonable. Thanks for the numbers, I like that. One correction- 400km is only 6.25 times the range of the Volt, since the Volt’s range is measured in miles. The thing about the energy in gas… an ICE engine only converts about 20% of it into momentum. So the output of a gallon of gas is about 6.4 kwh. Meanwhile, an electric motor is about 90% efficient, so the energy stored in the Volt’s battery has an output of about 7.92 kwh. The equivalent of 1.23 gallons of gas. With a 40-mile range, it is as if the Volt gets 32.5 mph from electricity. So. A 400km range is about 250 miles. Using the Volt’s numbers as a benchmark (and being GM, I wouldn’t be surprised if the thing isn’t efficient :rolleyes:), it would require [250 miles/32.5 mpg =7.7 ‘gallon equivalents’ \* 6.4kwh=] 49.28 kWh stored in the battery. Everybody thinks the Volt has a rather lame battery for an EV. Is something with triple the capacity (ok, 5 times the capacity to avoid deep cycling) really so hard to believe? > [@](#): > > [Here’s the spec sheet](http://partsonsale.com/STP270_24Vb_12_ltr.pdf) for a 280 watt Suntech solar panel, of the type you might find on an RV. This panel is 77 inches long, 39 inches wide, 2 inches thick, and weighs about 60 lbs not including mounting hardware, inverters, etc. > > That panel, if left in full sunlight for 8 hours, will generate 2.25 kilowatt-hours of energy. Enough to get you about 14 km down the road. That doesn’t include the losses you’ll incur charging the battery, running the inverter, etc. In the real world, I’d guess you’d get closer to 8-10km of juice. A complete system including that panel would set you back maybe $3,000. > > At a cost of .10-.15 per kw-hr that you’d be normally charged by the power company, that solar penel is saving you maybe 30 cents a day in power, or maybe $110 or so per year. It will take you close to 30 years to pay off your solar investment. Assuming the sun shone 8 hours a day, every day. > > That’s the state of the art today. Solar just isn’t as advanced and practical as many people think. I’ll defer to your opinion on the state of the art of solar. But I’ll add that the solar panels on the Joule don’t appear as clunky as the one you described. And, solar is still improving, and even with the cost, what better way to deploy it? And- have you heard of PV film? Solar panels a millimeter thick! What’s your opinion of them? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/22 "2009-08-27T03:46:17Z")
I wonder, **Bayard** and others, how much having range over 100 miles is really worth to many American drivers, in the real world. As one small data point I can say that I would be fine with that range. We are a two car family and we would never use my Honda Civic hybrid for a family road trip. We’d use the Camry (yeah a hybrid too) for that. Now on the college road trip with one kid I took the Civic, but I could just have easily used the other car. Most families that I know with two parents in the house have two cars. And most people that I know travel less than 40 miles most days, and only occasionally travel as much as 70 miles in a day. Most are _psychologically_ attached to the concept of being able to travel any distance but actually have little real life utility to have the main commuter car do so. Yes, that psychological stumbling block is a big one. But $10 to 15K plus goes a long way to overcoming it. And there is more than the money and the “green cred” involved. I just _hate_ having to stop at a gas station and spend that time there. No more gas station stops. No more oil changes. All I have to do is accept the fact that I really don’t drive cross country on a whim. Of course there are some who really do use the greater range with regularity. And those people will not be tempted by a car with that range, or any pure BEV until rapid charging is real and deployed where they would need it. But honestly I can see most families having one of their cars being a pure BEV with 100 mile range easily. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2009, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/23 "2009-08-27T12:20:33Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I wonder, **Bayard** and others, how much having range over 100 miles is really worth to many American drivers, in the real world. I think this is the key question, and I don’t know the answer. I’m only going from my own experience, but I think the psychological stumbling block you mention is pretty big. We’re a two-car family as well – a Prius and an older Corolla. When the Corolla dies in a few years, we’ll be in the market for a new car, and environmental concerns are going to be near the top of our criteria for a new vehicle. I still don’t see us going for a BEV. Alhough, with our extended family situation, we might do more cross-country driving than the average American. I agree with you 100% about the advantages of a BEV. I just think the Leaf and Focus EV are going to have a hard time finding enough buyers at $25-$30 K. Maybe if they were priced lower, or if they went the Tesla route and charged a premium for some whiz-bang performance or styling, but at $25-$30K, I think they’re in for a hard fight. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/24 "2009-08-28T05:44:30Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > That panel, if left in full sunlight for 8 hours, will generate 2.25 kilowatt-hours of energy. Enough to get you about 14 km down the road. That doesn’t include the losses you’ll incur charging the battery, running the inverter, etc. In the real world, I’d guess you’d get closer to 8-10km of juice. A complete system including that panel would set you back maybe $3,000. > > At a cost of .10-.15 per kw-hr that you’d be normally charged by the power company, that solar penel is saving you maybe 30 cents a day in power, or maybe $110 or so per year. It will take you close to 30 years to pay off your solar investment. Assuming the sun shone 8 hours a day, every day. I’ll do the math later, but the trouble with your math in this case is you calculate the payoff date of automotive solar panels relative to the cost of _electricity_. This is incorrect. The solar panels displace the cost of _gasoline_. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/25 "2009-08-28T09:10:32Z")
You could go either way with it. You could say that the electricity that the solar panel generates merely saves you some charging time (and cost) that you’d otherwise have to get out of the wall socket. The only time it saves you actual gasoline is when it gives you extra range that you’d otherwise need the gasoline generator for. OTOH, it also adds convenience and extends your range. A day of charging in the sun at your work’s parking lot could give you an extra few miles to run some errands with later. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/26 "2009-08-28T11:33:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I just _hate_ having to stop at a gas station and spend that time there. No more gas station stops. No more oil changes. All I have to do is accept the fact that I really don’t drive cross country on a whim. You’d have to be a better planner than most people out there. At least if I run out of gas on the side of the highway, I can get a gerry can and fill it up again to get going. You’d have to tow an electric vehicle. Think how many times you’ve left home and noticed that you’re low on gas? So, you stop and fill up. How many people will push it when they go to get in their car and realize they haven’t plugged in the night before? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/27 "2009-08-28T12:24:04Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > You’d have to be a better planner than most people out there. At least if I run out of gas on the side of the highway, I can get a gerry can and fill it up again to get going. You’d have to tow an electric vehicle. > Think how many times you’ve left home and noticed that you’re low on gas? So, you stop and fill up. How many people will push it when they go to get in their car and realize they haven’t plugged in the night before? What planning? I come home I mindlessly plug in. In the morning it is topped off. Most days I am traveling 30 to 40 miles (15 to 20 each way). If my commute was longer, like 40 or 50 miles, close enough to make me nervous, I am sure I could arrange with my work to use an outlet in the parking lot - there are a few accessible actually - but no need. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/28 "2009-08-28T12:41:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > What planning? I come home I mindlessly plug in. In the morning it is topped off. Damn cord! I need to get the garbage out and it’s in the way \\. No, I agree with you, though. It still doesn’t negate the fact that if you run out of juice you can’t just fill up on the highway. You’re left with getting a tow. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/29 "2009-08-28T14:13:53Z")
It does raise an interesting point as to what things might look like in the future. The Leaf _can_ be [rapid charged](http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1033851_2011-nissan-leaf-charging-capabilities-could-make-range-limitless). One wonders if tow trucks in some foreseeable future will have large capacitor on board with enough in it to quickly give an EV enough to get to a charge point - for a fee. But yes, you won’t be able to walk to the station and grab a can of electricity, pour it in, and take care of your stupidity on your own. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/30 "2009-08-28T14:33:13Z")
When I think of the number of times I’ve forgotten to plug in my cell phone . . . well, it makes me nervous. I’d still go for a Tesla Roadster 😉 But I’d want the Envoy on the side for long trips. I don’t understand how that Model S seats seven. It looks like five at best - are there seatbelts in the trunk or something? ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/31 "2009-08-28T14:58:35Z")
For an electric car, I think the right way of calculating a MPG equivalent would be to figure the kwh/gallon production of a petroleum-fired power plant (there are still some left in the world, and they used to be more common when oil was $2/barrel, so stats ought to be obtainable), then multiply by the miles/kwh of the car. One might also need a factor in there for average electricity loss over the grid between the power plant and your house, depending on whether that’s big enough to matter much. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/32 "2009-08-28T15:18:47Z")
I think the big sticking point is how to charge. I have a garage that I can park in right now, but many of my neighbors use theirs for storage and my wife is thinking about converting ours into a play room. That would leave us parking on the street. The Watchmen comic had a pure electric transportation system with fireplug shaped chargers on every street in New York. We would have to figure something similar unless the range and time to charge could be brought to levels similar to ICEs. Saying that, as long as I have a garage, I would love something like the S Type. I have a Prius now, and the biggest problem is that with two kids under 3, the back seat is filled (CA requires car seats or boosters until 6). We could not fit a third in at all right now. The S type has a trunk in front and two rear facing child seats in the back. Jonathan ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/33 "2009-08-28T18:53:36Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > I don’t understand how that Model S seats seven. It looks like five at best - are there seatbelts in the trunk or something? Actually, [yes, sort of.](http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://evilmonito.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/tesla_s_top.jpg&imgrefurl=http://evilmonito.com/2009/04/19/tesla-model-s/&usg=__wIWCO_0hjpBBHfv_jecs13gGX1A=&h=315&w=650&sz=101&hl=en&start=35&sig2=qlFny72QGlFo5TghwMH7Vg&tbnid=BIgoTObpxNMP_M:&tbnh=66&tbnw=137&ei=8x2YSrqsOY24M5_fuLAF&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtesla%2Bs%2Bseats%26gbv%3D1%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN%26start%3D21%26um%3D1&um=1)The plus two are fold-downable kid only seats facing backwards under what is actually a glass-topped hatchback. Not enough headroom for an adult but fine for the wee ones. And the front serves as a trunk with all the batteries and engine built in underneath. And indeed **Strassia** , until there _is_ a large roll-out of public charging networks any EV (BEV, or EREV, or PHEV) will only tempt those whose homes have an outlet accessible to where they park. This thread is limited to the battle for those consumers. That said, it is interesting what progress is being made. [Vancouver](http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=21359) has passed building code which requires > [@](#): > > all new multi-family condominium projects to have 20% of parking stalls wired for electric vehicle charging. … City Council also approved a plan to enhance the public charging infrastructure through its Easy Park parking lots. [San Jose](http://www.reuters.com/article/mnGreenAutos/idUS207198251620090729), [The San Fran Bay area](http://www.sfgov.org/site/mayor_index.asp?id=93399), and [Portland](http://gas2.org/2009/08/05/portland-lands-major-upgrade-to-electric-vehicle-infrastructure/), are among the other cities “charging” ahead with a public EV infrastructure. In fact per that last link - > [@](#): > > eTec, a subsidiary of ECOtality, Inc., is working with Nissan North America to deploy approximately 5,000 electric vehicles and 12,750 charging stations in five U.S. markets, including Oregon. Deployment of vehicles and infrastructure will focus initially on the Portland-metro area and then expand to other areas in Oregon. It also follows an agreement between the state, Nissan North America and Portland General Electric last November to work toward the development of an electric vehicle charging network. > > That means that up to 1,000 Nissan electric vehicles will be deployed in Oregon and 2,500 charging stations will be installed at homes and businesses that choose to purchase the Nissan Leaf and participate in the program. And this could be just the beginning for the Portland region. As we build out our EV grid, we’ll be looking to create the infrastructure for EV’s along major interstate corridors. (I’m assuming they are talking about the 220 charger, rather than the true rapid charge) ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/34 "2009-08-29T03:33:58Z")
I wonder where we’re going to get all this electricity to charge vehicles from? It pretty much takes an act of god to get approvals for new plants now. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/35 "2009-08-29T04:30:38Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > One might also need a factor in there for average electricity loss over the grid between the power plant and your house, depending on whether that’s big enough to matter much. Transmission and distribution losses are ~7%. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/36 "2009-08-29T04:36:51Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I wonder where we’re going to get all this electricity to charge vehicles from? It pretty much takes an act of god to get approvals for new plants now. More thin-film solar? Here’s a summary of an (expensive to read in full) [report](http://www.gtmresearch.com/report/thin-film-pv-2.0-market-outlook-through-2012). One claim: > [@](#): > > The report estimates that by 2012, thin-film could make up over 40 percent of worldwide PV production and approaching 10 GW of capa city. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/37 "2009-08-29T04:50:57Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > More thin-film solar? Possibly. Another option that is part of the paint on a car. [Polymer Solar cell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer_solar_cells). So, uh, if you scratch someones paint is there a chance to electrocute yourself? What happens if you get in a minor accident? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/38 "2009-08-29T12:33:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > I wonder where we’re going to get all this electricity to charge vehicles from? It pretty much takes an act of god to get approvals for new plants now. No time to find the cites now but there is plenty of “trough” capacity for EVs; moreover if, eventually, EVs also go vehicle to grid (V2G) during spikes in demand - while charging during the day - excess supply capacity currently needed as spinning reserves will be _decreased_. The key will be that as (of if) EVs strongly penetrate the market a “smart grid” is created simultaneously. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/39 "2009-08-29T12:46:15Z")
DSeid, it sounds good in theory, but when I come home and plug in my vehicle, I expect it to charge, not discharge to cover everyone else getting home, cooking dinner, doing laundry, etc. I may want to go out to a movie later, or something, and if my car is sitting there powering the grid I can’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Nars\_Glinley](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nars_glinley/32/8177_2.png) [@Nars\_Glinley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nars_Glinley)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2009, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/40 "2009-08-29T14:41:26Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > No time to find the cites now but there is plenty of “trough” capacity for EVs; moreover if, eventually, EVs also go vehicle to grid (V2G) during spikes in demand - while charging during the day - excess supply capacity currently needed as spinning reserves will be _decreased_. The key will be that as (of if) EVs strongly penetrate the market a “smart grid” is created simultaneously. Wouldn’t this require installation of transfer switches in every home or would these somehow be built into the vehicle? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396.md?page=3)