# EVs: the likely field emerges. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 23, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396 "2009-08-23T16:44:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/41 "2009-08-30T15:03:12Z")
V2G would be designed to decrease the amount of [spinning reserves](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_demand_%28electric_power%29) needed for short term spikes in demand. > [@](#): > > The power utilities are able to predict to a reasonable accuracy (generally to within one or two percent) the demand pattern throughout any particular day. This means that the free market in electricity is able to schedule just enough base load in advance. Any remaining imbalance would then be due either to inaccuracies in the prediction, or unscheduled changes in supply (such as a power station fault) and/or demand. Such imbalances are removed by requesting generators to operate in so called frequency response mode (also called frequency control mode), altering their output continuously to keep the frequency near the required value… > > … This spinning reserve is a significant expense to the power utilities as often fuel must be burned or potential power sales lost to maintain it. The kind of generation used for fast response is usually fossil fuel powered which produces emissions of between 0.48 and 1.3 tonnes of CO2 equivalent for every megawatt hour (MWh) generated. Thus a significant environmental burden, in the form of in increased greenhouse gas emissions, is associated with this imbalance. These spikes are often extremely brief, and subsequent to them the baseline supply scheduled for the time of day is ample. The concept for V2G is that vehicles’ batteries can provide a buffer for supplying those brief spikes while still having plenty of time to be fully recharged when unplugged to go. Different systems are envisioned, many of which would allow a car owner to schedule when they want their car fully charged by and which allow the car owner to be compensated at a premium for supplying what is to the utility otherwise very expensive marginal electricity to supply. [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V2G) gives a brief sketch of the concept. > [@](#): > > Vehicle-to-grid can be used with such gridable vehicles, this is, plugin vehicles (this is, electric vehicles as Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV) or Plug-in hybrid electric vehicles), with grid capacity. Since most vehicles are parked an average of 95 percent of the time, their batteries could be used to let electricity flow from the car to the power lines and back, with a value to the utilities of up to $4,000 per year per car. … > > … The concept allows V2G vehicles to provide power to help balance loads by “valley filling” (charging at night when demand is low) and “peak shaving” (sending power back to the grid when demand is high). It can enable utilities new ways to provide regulation services (keeping voltage and frequency stable) and provide spinning reserves (meet sudden demands for power). In future development, it has been proposed that such use of electric vehicles could buffer renewable power sources such as wind power, for example, by storing excess energy produced during windy periods and providing it back to the grid during high load periods, thus effectively stabilizing the intermittency of wind power. Some see this application of vehicle-to-grid technology as a renewable energy approach that can penetrate the baseline electric market. > > It has been proposed that public utilities would not have to build as many natural gas or coal-fired power plants to meet peak demand or as an insurance policy against blackouts[6] Since demand can be measured locally by a simple frequency measurement, dynamic load leveling can be provided as needed.[7] [More about V2G.](http://www.greencarcongress.com/v2g/) Also please note: [The batteries can do this without significant degradation.](http://www.alternativeenergynewswire.com/study-finds-phev-li-ion-cells-show-little-capacity-fade-under-combined-driving-and-v2g-usage-economic-model-suggests-incentives-will-be-required-for-vehicle-owners-to-participate-in-v2g) > [@](#): > > a PHEV pack comprising lithium iron phosphate cells would incur little capacity loss from combining vehicle-to-grid (V2G) activities with regular driving. But as that last cite notes, the car owners need a decent enough slice of that $4000/yr the utility would be saving to make it worth their while. $100/yr won’t cut it. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/42 "2009-08-30T16:03:02Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > ]Here’s the spec sheet for a 280 watt Suntech solar panel, of the type you might find on an RV. This panel is 77 inches long, 39 inches wide, 2 inches thick, and weighs about 60 lbs not including mounting hardware, inverters, etc. > > That panel, if left in full sunlight for 8 hours, will generate 2.25 kilowatt-hours of energy. Enough to get you about 14 km down the road. That doesn’t include the losses you’ll incur charging the battery, running the inverter, etc. . And the reduced mileage you’ll get from hauling that extra 60# around all the time. Here’s the thing- in a gas/electric hybrid, like the Volt- if you run out of power, you can simply go to a gas station, and in 5 minutes you’re on your way. True, in urban America you may rarely want to go more than 100 miles (and you could rent a car for long trips)- but if you did “run out” it means EIGHT FUCKING HOURS getting a recharge. And that 100 miles or whatever is an estimate. Let’s say you were in a hilly town, and had 60 miles of driving that day- and the battery ran out after 50? EIGHT FUCKING HOURS getting a recharge or a tow then those 8 hours. And, there is no need at all for a pure electric vehicle. If you do just short urban trips, you can buy today a Neighborhood EV, one with a 50-100 mile range and a top speed of around 40MPG. True you can;t drive it on the freeway. But it’s a fraction of the price, takes up less room, and often is less to insure and pay taxes on. S In order to make pure EV’s a reality, we have to assume a customer who: Will never want to drive more than half the posted maximum range- Needs to drive on the Freeway for part of that. and has a charging station available. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/43 "2009-08-31T05:11:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Here’s the thing- in a gas/electric hybrid, like the Volt- if you run out of power, you can simply go to a gas station, and in 5 minutes you’re on your way. Are you talking about gas stations, which will top up your puny gas engine that can barely come up with half the power your electric motor needs to keep you running at speed, or an alternative powerplant, which provides half of power you ask for when you turn left and hope to beat the oncoming traffic? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/44 "2009-08-31T07:01:25Z")
I wonder if all these EVs could help us out of the recession. I hope the Volt is so successful it makes the K-Car look like a bad idea in comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/45 "2009-08-31T08:21:01Z")
I think plug-in hybrids are a better solution. From an engineering standpoint, if 80% of your trips are within 20km, why would you want to haul around hundreds of extra pounds of useless batteries? The Volt feels like a more optimal solution - for 80% of your driving, you drive on electric alone. But when you need to go a long way, or get busy and can’t make it to a charging station, you can just fire up the gas engine and drive for hundreds of miles. But for the 80% case, you’re driving on electric and you’re carrying around much less weight. I also like the fact that the Volt could potentially be used as a gas generator. Nice to know that if there’s a blackout you can just fire up the car and have access to large amounts of instant power. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/46 "2009-08-31T12:28:08Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > I think plug-in hybrids are a better solution. From an engineering standpoint, if 80% of your trips are within 20km, why would you want to haul around hundreds of extra pounds of useless batteries? The Volt feels like a more optimal solution - for 80% of your driving, you drive on electric alone. But when you need to go a long way, or get busy and can’t make it to a charging station, you can just fire up the gas engine and drive for hundreds of miles. But for the 80% case, you’re driving on electric and you’re carrying around much less weight. > > I also like the fact that the Volt could potentially be used as a gas generator. Nice to know that if there’s a blackout you can just fire up the car and have access to large amounts of instant power. To the plug-in v. BEV comment: it depends on cost and weight, doesn’t it? Which depends both on the technology and on how much range people end up feeling they really need. Please note that your comment could also be turned on its head. Why would you want to lug around an ICE and all of its associated accoutrements, when you get away without those hundreds of extra pounds and cost? No, at least in its announced form, the Volt has no ability to to deliver power back out. Maybe someday. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396/47 "2009-08-31T17:47:31Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Are you talking about gas stations, which will top up your puny gas engine that can barely come up with half the power your electric motor needs to keep you running at speed, or an alternative powerplant, which provides half of power you ask for when you turn left and hope to beat the oncoming traffic? I don’t understand your question. 😕 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/evs-the-likely-field-emerges/507396.md?page=2)