# Ex-Gay Leader Suggests That Gay Religious Leaders Say Jesus Was Gay **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 6, 2002, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753 "2002-06-06T23:23:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/21 "2002-06-08T05:28:30Z")
There is nothing but a deafening silence in the Gospels on the subject of Jesus’ personal life. Whether He was gay or straight, whether He really loved His mother, whether He liked peanut butter with jelly or plain, whether He “got” Benny Hill–on all these subjects the Bible is completely, totally, absolutely silent. You can assume and extrapolate all you like–for example, “Somebody who’s 30 years old and hangs around with other guys a lot is probably gay”, or “Somebody who preached a doctrine of simplicity probably preferred a plain PB to a PBJ”, or “Somebody who would make dumb jokes about camels going through the eye of a needle probably would have enjoyed Benny Hill very much”–but there’s nothing in the Bible covering it. And think about this for a minute: We don’t even have any real, relatively unassailable evidence that Jesus even existed. Period. Let alone whether He was gay or straight. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/22 "2002-06-08T17:25:22Z")
I never got the impression that he was much interested in anyone – he always seems more focused on politics and religion. I figured that he was celibate, and that the authors of the gospel weren’t much interested in that side of his life, anyway. If I was looking for a sympathetic portrayal of homosexuality in the Bible, I think a better case could be made for David and Jonathon than Jesus and John. Still, this is a very old question. There is iconography from the Middle Ages – sculptures, paintings, etc – that portray John and Jesus romantically, as a married couple. And when King James I of England was asked about his relationship with a certain George, his “gentleman of the bedchamber,” James replied, “Jesus had his John and I have my George.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/23 "2002-06-08T17:33:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Still, this is a very old question. There is iconography from the Middle Ages – sculptures, paintings, etc – that portray John and Jesus romantically, as a married couple. Do you have a cite for that? Not being nasty, just asking… We all know about King James…(poor Jack Chick!) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/24 "2002-06-08T18:09:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > **…the idea of being “gay” is wholly a twentieth-century construct. In Jesus’ time, and in times up to the Victorian era, there were simply men who fooled around with other men–or men who fooled around with teenage boys–to varying degrees. Then, as now, only a very small minority stuck to boys exclusively (and, granted, maybe only a small minority would have preferred to stick with women exclusively). Building an identity around these choices is not a concept that Jesus’ followers, or Plato, or Alexander, would have understood.** No doubt you have a cite for this? ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/25 "2002-06-08T19:00:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\* > > Do you have a cite for that? Not being nasty, just asking… > > We all know about King James…(poor Jack Chick!) \*\* Sadly, I don’t have an online cite for these, only hard copy. My main source is _Closet Devotions_ by Richard Rambuss (Duke University Press), which is devoted to homoerotic Catholic art. The subject is also discussed briefly _Same-sex Unions in Premodern Europe_ by John Boswell (Villard Books). I suspect it’s discussed in greater detail in Boswell’s _Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality_, since the author frequently refers the reader to that book, but I have yet to find a copy of it. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/26 "2002-06-08T19:16:43Z")
As for **Doghouse Reilly’s** comments, he’s right that the idea of building an _identity_ around homosexuality is relatively new – about 150 old. Few people thought of it as an identity prior to that. One person who’s talked a lot about this is Michel Foucault, who once said, “The sodomite was an aberration, the homosexual was a species.” However, I take issue with Foucault here and a lot of theorists. I believe that _identity_ is constructed, homosexual _desire_ is not. In a society where there was no persecution, there would probably be no “gay identity” – like left-handedness, the subject would only come up in situations where it was somehow relevant. Don’t make the mistake that because “gay” didn’t qualify as a category, that there weren’t a comparable number of people who were exclusively homosexual in their desires. Marriages were arranged, people felt the need to make points about their masculinity, etc. The medieval world did not discuss sex as openly as we do, most of them were illiterate and left no documentation, we have no surveys and no medical reports to fall back on. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/27 "2002-06-08T19:18:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lord Ashtar \* > \*\* > > No doubt you have a cite for this? \*\* Just google-ing at random found [this article](http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/dunkle/athnlife/homosex.htm), which I thought was rather interesting: > [@](#): > > Athenian men were not homosexual in the sense that they were sexually attracted only to other males, although there were such men just as in our society. Robin Waterfield1 suggests that the term ‘homoeroticism’ more accurately describes Athenian males, who were sexually attracted to both other males (homoeroticism) and women (heteroeroticism) and generally viewed both forms of love as equally normal. > > Because respectable unmarried (and married) Athenian women because of their seclusion were unavailable, adult males (erastai = ‘lovers’) sought sexual and romantic satisfaction among boys in their teens (erômenoi = ‘the recipients of love’), but not because these young males were feminine in appearance. In fact, just the opposite was true. The younger male was expected to follow a code of behavior that is taught to girls these days, i.e., not to be sexually aggressive, to resist sexual advances, and not to give in too easily. When a boy did finally give in, he was not expected to have any active involvement in sexual intercourse, but merely to be a passive recipient (anal and intercrural2 intercourse). These relationships between men and boys in their teens were not merely sexual. They typically involved close friendship and mentoring of the younger by the older in the matters of social behavior and ethics. > > Athenian society in general tolerated this homosexual relationship and excused it with a wink, if it did not violate the bounds of decorum (e.g., sexual aggressiveness and promiscuity on the part of an erômenos or carrying on this kind of affair after the boy had become a man **and/or after the older male had married** ). On the other hand, among the wealthy Athenian aristocracy, the romantic association between erastês and erômenos was idealized and positively encouraged. (emphasis mine) So cavorting with younger boys was sort of a premarital sport that had its winked-at place in Athenian society, but as far as I can tell, nobody went around bellowing that he centered his whole sense of identity on what might seem a rather arbitrary choice of sport. I wouldn’t be surprised if this description of Athens might generally apply to most ancient societies. ---
**Author:** ![PhiloVance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e19adc/32.png) [@PhiloVance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhiloVance)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/28 "2002-06-08T19:25:05Z")
Isn’t the use of the word [**gay**](http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=gay) as meaning homosexual men also a late 20th, early 21st century phenonenum? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/29 "2002-06-08T19:29:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PhiloVance \* > \*\*Isn’t the use of the word [**gay**](http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=gay) as meaning homosexual men also a late 20th, early 21st century phenonenum? \*\* Yeah, but I’d also argue that the underlying concept of centering one’s sense of identity on one’s choice of bedmates is just as recent–or at least, as recent as the late Victorian era. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2002, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/30 "2002-06-08T19:36:38Z")
I hadn’t yet read **Hamish’s** post when I made my (somewhat redundant?) response immediately above. Regarding the OP, it would seem now that “gay Jesus” assertion is groundless on two counts: (1) it is impossible to prove, since you would have to demonstrate that Jesus had an _exclusive_ preference for men or boys, such that his preference would differentiate him from what was probably going on all around him more or less openly in ancient society; and (2) the very idea of “gay” didn’t exist at the time–and again, even if you could go back and explain the concept to Jesus’ contemporaries, they would probably find it a little ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/31 "2002-06-09T05:35:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\* > So cavorting with younger boys was sort of a premarital sport that had its winked-at place in Athenian society, but as far as I can tell, nobody went around bellowing that he centered his whole sense of identity on what might seem a rather arbitrary choice of sport. I wouldn’t be surprised if this description of Athens might generally apply to most ancient societies. \*\* Not entirely true. Although there weren’t identities wrapped around the various desires, in both Athenian society and later in Roman society, some philosophers did take up the debate of which was the “highest” form of love. There have always been a few people who’ve expressed exclusive preferences for one or the other sex. Once again, I seperate between gay _identity_ – a new phenomenon – and exclusively homosexual _desire_ – which I believe to be a constant. When I was looking over the history of homosexuality, I found that there several ways societies tended to deal with it. Some persecuted it. Some encouraged it under certain conditions. Some set aside a certain special category, often a religious one, for people who were “between sexes.” And some simply tolerated it, as long as the person in question could fulfil his or her duties, which often included producing children. I suspect the Roman-era Levant fell into this last category. Another problem answering the Is-Jesus-gay question is that these were things nobody cared enough about to set in writing. As John Boswell, whose made a name for himself as the “historian of homosexuality,” pointed out, it’s hard to know anything about the love-lives of anyone before our era, simply because our society is more_obsessed_ with romantic love than any society previous. I doubt the population of Roman Palestine would care enough to record Jesus’s romantic life. The idea that anyone would care enough to want to know would probably surprise them. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2002, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/32 "2002-06-09T23:05:54Z")
**Hamish** , thanks. Although, I have to quibble with you on your statement about people not talking about sex in medieval times. As **Maeglin** about that-or read some medieval manuscripts. They were pretty raunchy. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/33 "2002-06-10T06:07:26Z")
[Wife of Bath](http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/CT-prolog-bathpara.html) comes to mind (lines 443-450): > [@](#): > > What eyleth yow to grucche thus and grone? > Is it for ye wolde have my queynte allone? > Wy, taak it al! lo, have it every deel! > Peter! I shrewe yow, but ye love it weel; > For if I wolde selle my bele chose, > I koude walke as fressh as is a rose; > But I wol kepe it for youre owene tooth. > Ye be to blame, by god! I sey yow sooth. – ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/34 "2002-06-10T09:57:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Not being nasty, just asking… I’m wondering if they could be refering to depictions of John with his head resting on Jesus’ shoulder or chest. It’s a far cry from depicting them “as a married couple”, but can certainly be perceived as “romantical” if someone is inclined to see it this way… Anyway, even a painting where John and Jesus are represented as a married couple would tell more about the painter than about Jesus as depicted in the gospels (and given the confidence I have in the gospels being an accurate report about Jesus 😃 …) . ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/35 "2002-06-10T12:27:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\* > I’m wondering if they could be refering to depictions of John with his head resting on Jesus’ shoulder or chest. It’s a far cry from depicting them “as a married couple”, but can certainly be perceived as “romantical” if someone is inclined to see it this way… > Anyway, even a painting where John and Jesus are represented as a married couple would tell more about the painter than about Jesus as depicted in the gospels (and given the confidence I have in the gospels being an accurate report about Jesus 😃 …) . \*\* If I remember correctly and the incident with John resting on Jesus’ shoulder occurred during the last supper, then I heard an interesting interpretation of that passage recently. This TV show recreated the likely layout of of the banquet, noting that the apostles likely were reclining Roman-style on three couches surrounding a central table, such that they were resting on their elbows. If this were the case, and John were immediately to the right of Jesus, then the only way Jesus could whisper something to John privately (about who his betrayer would be?) would be if John leaned backwards against Jesus’ shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/36 "2002-06-10T12:29:42Z")
Seems to me that this is mainly an effort to demonize Christians who advocate for tolerance of homosexuality more than anything else. The notion that Christ was gay is obviously quite radical, and likely to be unacceptable to a great many people. Conflating people who advocate that Christ was gay with people who advocate for tolerance of homosexuals makes it easier to justify refusing to accept tolerance of homosexuality. Very intellectually dishonest, though. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/37 "2002-06-10T13:30:03Z")
And **KellyM** gets it in one. Until reading this article I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone seriously propose that Jesus was homosexual. I have heard it suggested lightheartedly, but never as a serious debate topic. For evidence of the demonization, just reread this paragraph > [@](#): > > When I asked White about this view, he said, “I would not agree with anybody who holds such a view!” If what he says is true, then he apparently disagrees with most of his followers, colleagues, peers and closest friends. Wilkins is putting words into the mouths of thousands of gay Christians and then condemning them for those words they never spoke. > [@](#): > > It is headed by UFMCC minister Mel White, a former “evangelical” who left his wife for a man. This is really one of the more offensive statements in his little diatribe. The editorial twist of “left his wife” is used to imply that he abandoned her and their children. This is inaccurate and dishonest. Mel White tried to be straight for 25 years of marriage. He underwent “ex-gay” therapy, including electro-shock therapy, for many of those years. In the end, he couldn’t fight who he was and he and his wife separated, but he did not abandon her. He remained financially supportive until she could be independent and their children were out of college. He also continued to live nearby and take an active role in their lives until he moved to Dallas to be part of the staff at the Cathedral of Hope, well after their children were adults and Lyla (his ex-wife) was financially independent. They remain friends to this day and she even wrote the introduction to his autobiography. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/38 "2002-06-10T14:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*Anyway, even a painting where John and Jesus are represented as a married couple would tell more about the painter than about Jesus as depicted in the gospels (and given the confidence I have in the gospels being an accurate report about Jesus 😃 …) . \*\* Well, exactly. I doubt this debate could be resolved. It comes down to a big “I don’t know.” I raised the subject just to show this is a very old debate. Here’s Dr. Boswell’s word on it: > [@](#): > > _from John Boswell’s_ Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe: > \*\*Certainly the most controversial same-sex couple in the Christian tradition comprised Jesus and John, the “beloved disciple.” The relationship between them was often depicted in subsequent art and literature as intimate if not erotic. John refers to himself six times as “the disciple whom Christ loved,” causing one to wonder whether in John’s view Jesus did not “love” the other apostles. At the very least, he must have meant that Jesus had a _special affection_ for him, which is corroborated by the fact that while dying on the cross, Jesus made John the guardian of his mother, a situation reminiscent of what would happen if one half of a married couple died before the other… > > On the other hand, the New Testament is far too reticent about all personal feelings to resolve this highly charged controversy fully, and doubtless the the evangelists (apart from John himself) thought it best to leave Jesus’ personal attachments out of the story.\*\* [sub]Sorry for the long quote, but this is a rather obscure book, and I doubt the relevant passage could be found on the Internet[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/39 "2002-06-10T14:45:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doghouse Reilly \* > \*\* > > If I remember correctly and the incident with John resting on Jesus’ shoulder occurred during the last supper, then I heard an interesting interpretation of that passage recently. This TV show recreated the likely layout of of the banquet, noting that the apostles likely were reclining Roman-style on three couches surrounding a central table, such that they were resting on their elbows. If this were the case, and John were immediately to the right of Jesus, then the only way Jesus could whisper something to John privately (about who his betrayer would be?) would be if John leaned backwards against Jesus’ shoulder. \*\* Well, yes, that’s a possibility, but that’s never how it’s portrayed in the medieval art I mentioned. One of the most common images is John, sitting up, with his head on Christ’s chest, Christ with his arm around John, and the two holding right hands. It’s really the last image that’s most important here. The _dextrarum junctio_ was _the_ symbol of marriage in medieval art, the way putting a ring on the finger would be _the_ symbol of marriage today. It could have other meanings, of course, such as alliance or business dealing, but marriage was the most common interpretation, and any artist sculpting or painting these images would have been aware of the semiotics. Once again, my point was simply that this was an old debate. ---
**Author:** ![Hamish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a5b964/32.png) [@Hamish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2002, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753/40 "2002-06-10T15:10:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\ ***Hamish** , thanks. Although, I have to quibble with you on your statement about people not talking about sex in medieval times. As **Maeglin** about that-or read some medieval manuscripts. > > They were pretty raunchy. \*\* Yeah. Looking over my original post, I realize I was making a fairly gross generalization. There is plenty of literature from the middle ages about sex, but it falls short of the sort of rational discussion one would have about sex, post-Freud. Most discussions I’ve found of sex in the middle ages are either the Church’s moralizing or burlesque comedy. The Wife of Bath’s Prologue stands out as one of the few genuinely analytical pieces on the subject of sex. Sermons and sex comedies aren’t necessarily an accurate portrayal of the sexual life of the average man or woman of the middle ages. To make generalizations based on these about the nature of desire at the time is to rest one’s argument on very shaky ground. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-leader-suggests-that-gay-religious-leaders-say-jesus-was-gay/112753.md?page=3)