# Ex-Gay Ministries? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226 "2003-01-08T01:28:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/141 "2003-01-15T17:23:44Z")
> [@](#): > > How to put this, romance and eroticism is for males and females, not males and males and females and females in my view. Then stick to hetero romance by all means, my dear lady, but do us gay folk the courtesy of allowing us to follow our inmost desires for love and companionship as well. > [@](#): > > Besides, passionate kissing leads to sexual desire and lust and if they’re passionately kissing and start lusting for sex then they’ve already done it in God’s eyes. If the Lord God Almighty cannot see the difference between the **desire** and the **performance** , then he is a very dim deity indeed not to comprehend a distinction most humans pick up quite easily. > [@](#): > > In my humble opinion, God wouldn’t see this as being right. I just cannot equate normal male and female relationships with homosexual activity, sorry. Madam, quoting God as an authority automatically takes your opinion out of the “Humble” category and plops it quite soundly in the “Bleedin’ Voice of God on Earth” category. BTW, if you examine your Scripture, you will find that St. Paul disapproved of women teaching doctrine. > [@](#): > > “Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. > But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” I Timothy 2:11-12 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/142 "2003-01-15T17:40:32Z")
Because rules are rules[sup]\*[/sup], **Poly**! Esprix [sub]\*Except, of course, when those rules conflict with the way those who proclaim the rules wish to live their lives.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Mars\_Horizon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mars_horizon/32/2804_2.png) [@Mars\_Horizon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mars_Horizon)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/143 "2003-01-15T17:45:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **His4Ever** , why should a gay person be at all interested in the god you witness for? Why, **Poly** - you should know! To avoid certain doom in H Eee Double Hockey Sticks, of course. And on preview - yeah, what **Esprix** said too. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/144 "2003-01-15T17:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\*If the Lord God Almighty cannot see the difference between the **desire** and the **performance** , then he is a very dim deity indeed not to comprehend a distinction most humans pick up quite easily. > \*\* Who are you to tell God how He should and should not be? Did you ever read what God said to Job after all his complaining about the terrible things that happened to him, such as “where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” I guess you don’t believe what the Bible says that when a man looks on a woman with lust, he’s committed adultery with her already in his heart. God’s ways are not man’s ways, \*\*gobear[/], and no amount of ranting about what He should and shouldn’t be or do isn’t going to change reality. ---
**Author:** ![lynn73](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ebca7d/32.png) [@lynn73](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lynn73)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/145 "2003-01-15T18:06:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\* > **His4Ever** , why should a gay person be at all interested in the god you witness for? \*\* Well, I find myself unable to represent God in what I would see to be a biased way just so certain groups would accept Him. I have to say what I believe is true. What am I supposed to say to gays? Continue in your sin? Everything’s okay? Is that what Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery, “continue in your sin?” (No need to continue to bring up my divorce and remarriage, I’m aware of your view on that.) In my point of view, we’re supposed to share the truth of the Bible, and what it reveals about God and what He says about things. Should I water it down so as to make it interesting for gays so they’ll come to God? Then they’d be coming to a falsehood in my opinion. The truth is the truth even if we can’t agree on what that is. We’re supposed to share it, then it’s up to the people whether to accept it or not. You can’t make people believe. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/146 "2003-01-15T18:06:24Z")
His4ever: > [@](#): > > Who are you to tell God how He should and should not be? Well. If nothing else, at least you’ve found common ground. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/147 "2003-01-15T18:09:20Z")
His4ever wrote: > [@](#): > > What am I supposed to say to gays? Continue in your sin? Everything’s okay? No. You’re supposed to say, “I love you and Christ loves you. Whatever sins you might have, they are no worse than my own.” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/148 "2003-01-15T18:13:34Z")
Works for me, **Lib**. Thanks again, **His** , for reminding me why I’ll never be Christian. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/149 "2003-01-15T18:19:32Z")
Esprix From where I sit, between the two of you, you are the Christian. There is a way to recognize who are His disciples. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/150 "2003-01-15T18:20:39Z")
> [@](#): > > I guess you don’t believe what the Bible says that when a man looks on a woman with lust, he’s committed adultery with her already in his heart. My good woman, surely by now you must know that I regard the Bible as nothing more than garbled history and “Just-So” stories. The Bible has as much authority to me as does the Qu’ran or the Popul Vuh. > [@](#): > > Who are you to tell God how He should and should not be? Did you ever read what God said to Job after all his complaining about the terrible things that happened to him, such as “where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?” They are the words of a bully, and I pity anyone who fashions her life in a fruitless effort to placate a deity that takes pleasure in torturing His creation. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/151 "2003-01-15T19:10:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Well, I find myself unable to represent God in what I would see to be a biased way just so certain groups would accept Him. I have to say what I believe is true. I understand that. In that Pit thread now closed, it seemed like we (all of us discussing the issue) were coming to some rapprochement on the perspective advanced by you, **Joe** , and **Jersey** , as opposed to the “love” perspective others of us were advancing. Of course, that quest for understanding had the inevitable trainwreck. > [@](#): > > What am I supposed to say to gays? Continue in your sin? Everything’s okay? Is that what Jesus said to the woman taken in adultery, “continue in your sin?” Of course not. But the bottom line is that your sins and mine no less and no more than those of gay people are condemned, and by God’s grace and forgiveness are written off, forgiven, when we follow Him. Maybe what you’re supposed to say to them is, “I have a Lord who loves me and said He loves you too. Come, follow Him.” And not decide what their sins are. _N’est ce pas_? > [@](#): > > (No need to continue to bring up my divorce and remarriage, I’m aware of your view on that.) From the way that’s phrased, I don’t think so. A literalist, judgmental reading of Jesus’s words implies that you’re committing adultery. That’s not how I read them – I believe that if He were to confront you today, He would say, “I understand what an ogre your first husband was, and I rejoice with you that you have found love and happiness. Now go, with my blessing, and refrain from trying to stop others from finding that same love and happiness with the people they love.” As simple as that. He loves us. He understands us. And he forgives us what errors we may have made, out of love. And he does the same thing for **gobear** and **Esprix** as for you and me. > [@](#): > > In my point of view, we’re supposed to share the truth of the Bible, and what it reveals about God and what He says about things. Should I water it down so as to make it interesting for gays so they’ll come to God? Then they’d be coming to a falsehood in my opinion. No, don’t ever water down the Gospel. But I don’t think it’s asking too much to ask you to consider as most important the very things that **Jesus** said were most important. And that’s where we differ: to my reading, you’ve set up the words of the Bible in place of the Word of God, and where He says “be merciful, loving, and forgiving, as you have received mercy, love, and forgiveness” you say, “it says here that they’re abominations.” ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/152 "2003-01-15T19:23:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Libertarian** _ > > From where I sit, between the two of you, you are the Christian. There is a way to recognize who are His disciples. Them’s FIGHTIN’ words! (I kid, I kid… 😃 ) Esprix ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/153 "2003-01-15T21:04:37Z")
In that case, **Esprix** , put up your dukes! I agree with **Libertarian**! 😃 What should I say to you, **His4Ever**? Should I water down my views on divorce because of what you’ve been through in your life? That’s exactly the position I’m in. Water the Bible down? Lass, my religious beliefs have got me beat up, led me to a gang-ridden neighborhood, and have led me to confront people twice my size. They have required me to forgive people who have shown me active malice and bite my tongue so hard I’ve _still_ got teethmarks! (OK, that last is a bit of an exaggeration.) I gave up a television show I loved because I didn’t like the theme of adultery and eventually divorce in it. I refused to watch _Once and Again_ for the same reason. By the way, since there was a similar show at the same time with a similar title, I may have got the title wrong. It’s the one which featured a romance between a separated woman and a newly divorced man. A fundamentalist preacher even did his level best to sexually harass me on the job because I turned him down because he was separated which does equal married in my book. His wife was divorcing him for rampant adultery which was the same reason he got kicked out of the Baptist church. Apparently he believes in keeping 9 out of 10 of the Commandments. ☹ My faith, coupled with a certain tendency to be outspoken, has got me into more trouble in my life than anything else. Because my faith required that I not desert a friend back in high school, even if she had been worth deserting, I picked up scars on my soul which persist to this day. Fortunately, through faith, some of those scars have healed and others are continuing to do so. The truth of my Bible says you are every bit as sinful as those you condemn. Does this mean I don’t want you to be part of my religion? No. But if I remind you you’re sinful everytime you turn around, and I admit I come dead close at times, why on earth or in heaven would you want to join me? Is there room in your heaven for homosexuals? Is there room for my old friend and his partner of many years? He got insults and cruelty for being my friend once, yet still he stood by me. For that reason, if no other and there are _many_ others, I will stand by him. By the way, the truth of my Bible also says that I am every bit as sinful as you and anyone I condemn. Actually, my beliefs say I am more sinful than those I condemn because condemning people is not my perogative, as I should well know. Respectfully, CJ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2003, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/154 "2003-01-15T23:55:45Z")
For some reason, Luke 18: 9-14 keeps coming back to my mind: > [@](#): > > To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men–robbers, evildoers, adulterers–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ > "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’ > “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.” ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2003, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226/155 "2003-01-17T10:39:17Z")
**His4Ever** , what about the Samaritan woman at the well? What about the 10 lepers who Christ healed – while only one returned to thank him, the Bible doesn’t say anything happened to the other 9. What about the man blind since birth, or the paralyzed man in Mark 2? The Bible does not record that any of these people asked for forgiveness, nor does it mention anything about Christ telling them to “Go, and sin no more.” The woman at the well acknowledged her sins, and Christ revealed to her that He was the Messiah before He even told His own disciples. Also, the story of the woman caught in adultery isn’t even in the earliest texts we have. Why do you focus on this one story of questionable origin to the exclusion of others? Perhaps for the same reason I focus on some of the stories I’ve mentioned and why I was so happy to be reminded of the paralyzed man in Mark 2 when I turned to my devotional last night – because it fits your view of what Christianity is. CJ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gay-ministries/147226.md?page=7)