# Ex-Gays, Revisited; or, When Are You Going To Give It Up Already? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 6, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415 "2001-02-06T23:19:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/1 "2001-02-06T23:19:53Z")
Hello, **Gay Guy** here, your resident One-Trick Pony (although based on my track record since I moved to San Diego, I think that number ought to be changed, or at least “At A Time” added on until further notice ;)), regaling you with yet another [PlanetOut story](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/po/20010131/co/u_k_ex-gay_group_gives_up_1.html) (that I got off of Yahoo!). It’s been a while since I posted something like this, so I’m entitled (besides, there might just be a GD here). So here’s the article I found dated February 1: > [@](#): > > **U.K. “Ex-Gay” Group Gives Up** > > The long-time leader of an “ex-gay” group in Britain has concluded that sexual orientation cannot be changed, [Gay.com](http://Gay.com) reported January 29. Jeremy Marks’ High Wycombe-based group Courage has been granted a two-year “sabbatical leave” by the umbrella group Exodus International “to explore its new direction and practice” and then report back. Courage had been pursuing a mission to help “those caught between homosexuality and Christianity” by supporting them to take “the road out of homosexuality” through prayer, and in Exodus’ words to attain “sexual purity” through its renunciation. But now Marks, a gay minister, is quoted as saying, “We are definitely wanting to be separated from the ‘ex-gay’ label and be more focused on supporting Christians who are gay.” After fourteen years, he said, “None of the people we’ve counseled have converted no matter how much effort and prayer they’ve put into it. There is much more benefit to the honest view.” > > … Marks finds the harm of the “ex-gay” movement in the “internal war” fought by those who presume that as gays and lesbians they cannot be good Christians. While Marks remains faithful to the vows he made to his wife of nine years, he admits – distinguishing restraint from denial – that, “In truth, my own orientation has not changed.” > > … Marks says that Exodus leaders – “in most cases, wonderful, caring people” – “are facing the possibility that we could have been wrong” about changing homosexual orientation, and that, “The potential is a major paradigm shift after 25 years.” Yet another blow against Exodus - their “poster boy” John Paulk was caught in a DC gay bar about five months ago. So are the “change” programs like Exodus ever going to admit/realize/give in that their programs simply don’t work? Or are we going to see more groups like one recently profiled on 20/20 (I do not have a link - I remember it was a group with “love” in it somewhere) that’s going to focus on changing a person’s _behavior_, rather than their actual _orientation_ (i.e., either grit your teeth, think of the Queen, have sex with the opposite gender and think of England; or go the celibate route)? These, too, seem doomed to failure, although they are at least more realistic than trying to change something that is, by all personal accounts and professional opinions, innate to a person’s nature. Have at it. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/2 "2001-02-07T00:01:33Z")
> [@](#): > > So are the “change” programs like Exodus ever going to admit/realize/give in that their programs simply don’t work? Oh, eventually, maybe. They’ll continue to decrease in number gradually, I think, but I think they’ll be around at least as long as the current variety of fundamentalist Xianity. > [@](#): > > Or are we going to see more groups . . . focus[sing] on changing a person’s behavior, rather than their actual orientation Absolutely. Many are starting to believe that _being_ gay isn’t sinful, as long as you never have sex with a man, never look at a man lustfully, and never think about sex with men. Or something. > [@](#): > > These, too, seem doomed to failure You think? Marks remains faithful to the vows he made to his wife." I mean, I don’t understand it one fucking bit, but I think there will always be people willing to be celibate for their faith. I agree that they will have a huge rate of recidivism, but I don’t know that the programs would be doomed. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/3 "2001-02-07T01:54:03Z")
> [@](#): > > So are the “change” programs like Exodus ever going to admit/realize/give in that their programs simply don’t work? Based on the observation that we still have groups predicting the end of the world, I would have to guess no. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/4 "2001-02-07T02:05:52Z")
Perhaps it’s more a thing made out of self-loathing, than anything else. When I hear talks of “ex-gays”, I can’t help it-my heart goes out to these people, who are obviously suffering from some serious internal problems within themselves. Trying to come to terms with their sexuality-trying to go so far to deny it…it’s very sad to hear about people who talk about “ex-gays.” Because I get a picture of someone hating him or herself. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/5 "2001-02-07T03:52:06Z")
Señor OP Esprix, I do have a reply for this thread, but after typing it out (90%) and then having my internet connection die and take down my Netscape in the process (a rare occurrence but no less annoying for all that), I’m not up for the retyping and posting of it at this point. Please accept my rain check, accompanying promise, and apologies. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/6 "2001-02-07T06:42:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Esprix \* > \*\* that’s going to focus on changing a person’s _behavior_, rather than their actual _orientation_ (i.e., either grit your teeth, think of the Queen, have sex with the opposite gender and think of England; or go the celibate route)? > Esprix \*\* So how come you haven’t posted anythnig in “sexuality and choice” (speaking of a buunch of folks who’d like you to grit your teeth and think of England)? ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/7 "2001-02-07T14:04:42Z")
I think of England when _I_ have sex. Particularly if it’s with a cute English lad… _rrowr_ ---
**Author:** ![Blondie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a4c791/32.png) [@Blondie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blondie)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/8 "2001-02-07T14:17:12Z")
What I don’t get is that all of the ex-gay people are religious. No athiests ever decide that they need to flip to the other side. Wouldn’t you think that this revelation would happen to “all” gays if there was any truth to it? It’s just another chapter in the book of Christian control over people. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/9 "2001-02-07T14:37:19Z")
“Pony Boy, Pony Boy, Oh my one-trick Pony Boy!” Hey, are there any ex-straight groups out there I can join? This whole heterosexuality thing is NOT working out for me. But since I have no attraction to women, I think I will need to be brainwashed or somethin’. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/10 "2001-02-07T14:41:12Z")
You won’t get any debate from me young pony. I do know a deacon in my church who Says he used to be gay, but now has been married happily for 12 years. Was he gay before? I didn’t know him then. IS he straight now? He Says so, I don’t know his heart however. He says God healed him, he didn’t go through any organization. Celibate for your faith? Yes, I personally am celibate til marriage, but thats different from living a lie; and besides, I can always marry, unlike gays. ---
**Author:** ![BunnyGirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@BunnyGirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BunnyGirl)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/11 "2001-02-07T14:58:12Z")
As a **former** (can’t emphasize that enough!) fundie, my current thinking is that _regardless_ of your orientation, the bible is pretty clear about avoiding sexual fornication, which has mostly been interpreted as sex outside of marriage. Personally, I feel that having the State sanction a marriage isn’t what makes a marriage; it is the commitment before God, friends, and family that you are now a couple, one person, if you will. Now, to me, I don’t see any reason why homosexual marriages should be outlawed. But that’s a whole 'nother topic in itself. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/12 "2001-02-07T15:16:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, I personally am celibate til marriage, but thats different from living a lie; and besides, I can always marry, unlike gays. Uh, been living under that rock long, **vanilla**? 🙂 Gay couples _can_ marry. [Vermont](http://www.publicagenda.org/headlines/headline042700.htm) even recognizes it as a civil union! ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/13 "2001-02-07T15:20:11Z")
Sorry, they didn’t tell Me… Is this good in every other state too? If so, I gotta tell my friend Phil. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/14 "2001-02-07T15:44:46Z")
I’ve been wondering a couple things, here. They might be better addressed on the ATGG threads, but what the heck. First, are there more people in the closet in these churches than there are straight people living a gay lifestyle? If so, the money spent on these programs is ill-spent: if their goal is “all members are straight,” you’d think such an intolerant attitude would be better exercised by getting people to come out of the closet, then booting them out of the church. They’re obviously looking at the long haul here; they could have spent ten or fifteen years identifying gays in the church, then said “okay, everybody out of the pool…” Hey, it worked for the military. :rolleyes: Second, how does anybody tell whether they’re straight-but-living-a-gay-lifestyle, or gay-but-living-straight, or whatever? Third, if they’re willing to accept gays if they’re “celibate for their faith,” does this mean they would allow openly homosexual people to be ministers, or whatever they call them, assuming that such people in their church are required to be celibate? Double standard, if they’re not cool with that. “You can be gay, and a member of the congregation, but you don’t get to put the robes on. That’s for straights.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ccd318/32.png) [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/15 "2001-02-07T16:16:21Z")
I think **Guinastasia** is absolutely right. The ex-gay movements will give up when there are not enough gays who hate themselves to support the movements. There seems to be no shortage of people (gay or otherwise) who hate themselves. So, sadly, I’d say they are not going to go away. However, I think it is certainly good to point out their obvious failings and ask when they are going to give up. **Ethilrist** , What the blazes does “straight-but-living-a-gay-lifestyle” mean? ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/16 "2001-02-07T16:24:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrMatrix \* > **Ethilrist** , What the blazes does “straight-but-living-a-gay-lifestyle” mean? \*\* From the OP: > [@](#): > > Courage had been pursuing a mission to help “those caught between homosexuality and Christianity” by supporting them to take “the road out of homosexuality” through prayer I thought the whole idea of the program was to help people living homosexual lifestyles switch to straight ones. If I was mistaken, I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/17 "2001-02-07T16:27:48Z")
> [@](#): > > Gay couples can marry. Vermont even recognizes it as a civil union! Until a case is brought before the Supreme Court to extend the “full faith and credit” clause to make gay marriages from Vermont legal in every state (which would mean overturning the Defense of Marriage Act), civil unions performed in Vermont have no meaning outside the state. Regarding the OP, ex-gays are sad, stunted people who have been so brainwashed by religion that they need to crush their natural desire to love and be loved so they can obey the tyrannical will of an imaginary sky god. To quote Jed Clampett, “pitiful, plumb pitiful.” ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/18 "2001-02-07T17:08:19Z")
It will probably end at the same things like anorexia nervosa and bulimia end. Self-loathing is as old as time. BTW, goboy, I believe in God, and I believe that God loves everyone. Period. I don’t think that if you are gay that means you can’t believe in God. Just find a religion that teaches love and tolerance. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/19 "2001-02-07T17:49:24Z")
Hey, some ex-heteros need to “Give it up, already,” too. Am I the only one who thinks Anne Heche is a lesbian poseur? I mean, I have no doubt she is consummating her lesbianism. She just appears to be … trying too hard. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415/20 "2001-02-07T18:12:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JuanitaTech \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Yes, I personally am celibate til marriage, but thats different from living a lie; and besides, I can always marry, unlike gays. > > Uh, been living under that rock long, **vanilla**? 🙂 > > Gay couples _can_ marry. [Vermont](http://www.publicagenda.org/headlines/headline042700.htm) even recognizes it as a civil union! \*\* Which state outside of Vermont has to recognize this union? Its a good step in the right direction but it isn’t enough. Marc [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-gays-revisited-or-when-are-you-going-to-give-it-up-already/53415.md?page=2)