# Ex-staffer of senator lashes out at Obama administration for secrecy about spying on American public **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 14, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198 "2013-08-14T06:50:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/1 "2013-08-14T06:50:00Z")
[Former aide to Sen. Ron Wyden has written a lengthy blog post on the ways the Obama administration has attempted to suppress debate on privacy issues](http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/13/obama-open-debate-nsa-spying) After talking about how the Senator’s efforts to express his concerns about the Patriot Act were thwarted, she goes on to say: > [@](#): > > I think it’s understandably hard for the American people to trust the president when he says his administration has the legal authority to conduct these surveillance programs, when one of the few things that remains classified about these programs is the legal argument that the administration says gives the NSA the authority to conduct these programs. This is the document that explains why the administration believes the word “relevant” gives them the authority to collect everything. It’s also the document I’d most like to see, since it’s the document my former boss has been requesting be declassified for more than half a decade. > > A reporter recently asked me why I think the administration won’t just declassify the legal opinion, given that the sources and methods it relates to have already been made public. “I think that’s pretty obvious”, I said. “I believe it will be much harder for the administration to claim that these programs are legal, if people can see their legal argument.” > > I think it’s hard for the American people to trust the president when his administration has repeatedly gone out of its way to silence critics and, again, treat oversight as a threat on par with al-Qaida. As another great Techdirt post this week – [US releases redacted document twice … with different redactions](http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130806/12163924081/us-releases-redacted-document-twice-with-different-redactions.shtml) – illustrates, many of the intelligence community’s classification decisions seem to be based more on a desire to avoid criticism than clear national security interests. I think it is embarrassing to both political parties that things have gotten to this point in our government. Since everyone now wants to be seen as “tough on terrorism”, most mainstream politicians nowadays seem to have no respect for privacy or the 4th amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/2 "2013-08-14T07:30:30Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > I think it is embarrassing to both political parties that things have gotten to this point in our government. Since everyone now wants to be seen as “tough on terrorism”, most mainstream politicians nowadays seem to have no respect for privacy or the 4th amendment. Or the 1st Amendment. Or the 5th Amendment. Or the 6th Amendment. I haven’t heard about any attacks on the 3rd Amendment yet, so that’s a plus, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/3 "2013-08-14T08:04:14Z")
So far as I’m concerned, the government can have every piece of communication I have ever made in any media whatsoever, and if they find anything interesting I hope they will let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/4 "2013-08-14T11:22:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So far as I’m concerned, the government can have every piece of communication I have ever made in any media whatsoever, and if they find anything interesting I hope they will let me know. You can trust that nice Mr. Bush; he has such a lovely smile. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/5 "2013-08-14T11:35:14Z")
All this NSA spying was constructed to be just slightly legal. Very carefully aligned with the law so as to bend but not break it. Notes from the meeting where that was finessed would be fun, but ultimately not good for the country. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/6 "2013-08-14T11:40:33Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So far as I’m concerned, the government can have every piece of communication I have ever made in any media whatsoever, and if they find anything interesting I hope they will let me know. You’re a very strange form of exhibitionist, aren’t you? > [@aNewLeaf](#): > > All this NSA spying was constructed to be just slightly legal. > Very carefully aligned with the law so as to bend but not break it. I don’t think it is. Considering that the supposed argument for _why_ it is legal is one of the better protected secrets in the whole mess, I think it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![BrokenBriton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@BrokenBriton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrokenBriton)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/7 "2013-08-14T12:50:12Z")
Another coward and ‘enemy of the people’ in government. #nightlynews ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/8 "2013-08-14T12:54:10Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I don’t think it is. Considering that the supposed argument for _why_ it is legal is one of the better protected secrets in the whole mess, I think it doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. Well obviously I wasn’t there. But from what I’ve read, it sure seems they tried to keep it legal. It looks like lawyers very carefully decided what could be collected and on whom without violating current law. but yeah, I’d like to know more. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/9 "2013-08-14T13:13:21Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > …I haven’t heard about any attacks on the 3rd Amendment yet, so that’s a plus, I suppose. Wait no longer. [A real live Third Amendment Case.](http://www.volokh.com/2013/07/04/a-real-live-third-amendment-case/) FTL: > [@](#): > > Henderson police arrested a family for refusing to let officers use their homes as lookouts for a domestic violence investigation of their neighbors, the family claims in court… The Mitchell family’s claim includes Third Amendment violations, a rare claim in the United States. The Third Amendment prohibits quartering soldiers in citizens’ homes in times of peace without the consent of the owner. As militarized as the cops are getting these days, I think the plaintiffs have a point. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/10 "2013-08-14T13:19:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Or the 1st Amendment. Or the 5th Amendment. Or the 6th Amendment. I haven’t heard about any attacks on the 3rd Amendment yet, so that’s a plus, I suppose. It doesn’t happen often, but occasionally a 3rd Amendment argument is made in court: [Third Amendment Suit Questions Police Fridge-Raiding Tactics](http://news.yahoo.com/third-amendment-suit-questions-police-fridge-raiding-tactics-090208761.html). In this case, police demanded that a homeowner allow them to use his home as a base for surveillance of his neighbor, a suspected \. Police are not soldiers, but the claim is that this demand violates the homeowner’s Third Amendment rights anyway. Not implausible. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/11 "2013-08-14T14:39:46Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > Well obviously I wasn’t there. But from what I’ve read, it sure seems they tried to keep it legal. > It looks like lawyers very carefully decided what could be collected and on whom without violating current law. Remember last time we had something like this, with Obama’s assassination memo? It too had bricks of plausibility held together with a mortar of bullshit, like a definition of “imminent threat” that requires neither imminence nor a threat. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/12 "2013-08-14T14:44:19Z")
I still haven’t seen anything the NSA has done that is actually illegal though. It all looks like ti was crafted to be just legal enough. Is there any evidence that’s not true? ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/13 "2013-08-15T04:42:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So far as I’m concerned, the government can have every piece of communication I have ever made in any media whatsoever, and if they find anything interesting I hope they will let me know. A quick skim of your posting history shows that you’re obviously very opinionated on political matters. It would be very naive of you to think that wouldn’t be enough to get you flagged as “interesting” to the government depending on who happens to hold the govt’s power. With the authoritarian direction that government has been taking since 9/11, I think the old “I have nothing to hide, so who cares if my privacy rights are being disregarded?” attitude is dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/14 "2013-08-16T02:49:47Z")
> [@aNewLeaf](#): > > I still haven’t seen anything the NSA has done that is actually illegal though. > It all looks like ti was crafted to be just legal enough. Is there any evidence that’s not true? Yes, according to the Washington Post: [“The National Security Agency has broken privacy rules or overstepped its legal authority thousands of times each year since Congress granted the agency broad new powers in 2008, according to an internal audit and other top-secret documents.”](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/nsa-broke-privacy-rules-thousands-of-times-per-year-audit-finds/2013/08/15/3310e554-05ca-11e3-a07f-49ddc7417125_story.html) ---
**Author:** ![slm2955](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c6cbf5/32.png) [@slm2955](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slm2955)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/15 "2013-08-16T02:52:31Z")
Why are they spying again? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/16 "2013-08-17T18:18:10Z")
> [@lavenderviolet](#): > > A quick skim of your posting history shows that you’re obviously very opinionated on political matters. It would be very naive of you to think that wouldn’t be enough to get you flagged as “interesting” to the government depending on who happens to hold the govt’s power. With the authoritarian direction that government has been taking since 9/11, I think the old “I have nothing to hide, so who cares if my privacy rights are being disregarded?” attitude is dangerous. Well, because he has been publicly so obviously very opinionated since the heyday of J Edgar Hoover and has never been arrested, it’s hard to think he’s flagged as more than “mildly interesting” by the law enforcement agents who catalog loudmouth lefties, and is more likely in the “who is that?” trashbin. Back in the day a lot of Pinko-Americans had inflated self images of their bad, revolutionary selves and thought there were FBI agents following their every move. They were disappointed to find out The Hoove and his successors didn’t give two shits about them. Bigger fish to fry, and all. This is not to reduce people’s concern over barely-legal domestic spying–it’s kinda cute that they think they are somehow important–but **'luci** is the kind of Real American Opinionated Bastard who, if brought before Robert Mueller to answer for his sins, would spit in his eye and repeat what he said. And more. People who are very public in their beliefs are like that, and often cannot understand why someone else would be more circumspect. You don’t make change by hiding your light under a bushel basket. And “a Senate staffer” said this? Since when have we cared about what Senate staffers had to say about anything? They’re clerical. Fuck 'em. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/17 "2013-08-18T22:32:34Z")
> [@slm2955](#): > > Why are they spying again? Because apparently terrorism can be used to justify anything you want it to since 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![lavenderviolet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/cdc98d/32.png) [@lavenderviolet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lavenderviolet)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/18 "2013-08-18T22:33:56Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Well, because he has been publicly so obviously very opinionated since the heyday of J Edgar Hoover and has never been arrested, it’s hard to think he’s flagged as more than “mildly interesting” by the law enforcement agents who catalog loudmouth lefties, and is more likely in the “who is that?” trashbin. Back in the day a lot of Pinko-Americans had inflated self images of their bad, revolutionary selves and thought there were FBI agents following their every move. They were disappointed to find out The Hoove and his successors didn’t give two shits about them. Bigger fish to fry, and all. > > This is not to reduce people’s concern over barely-legal domestic spying–it’s kinda cute that they think they are somehow important–but **'luci** is the kind of Real American Opinionated Bastard who, if brought before Robert Mueller to answer for his sins, would spit in his eye and repeat what he said. And more. People who are very public in their beliefs are like that, and often cannot understand why someone else would be more circumspect. You don’t make change by hiding your light under a bushel basket. > > And “a Senate staffer” said this? Since when have we cared about what Senate staffers had to say about anything? They’re clerical. Fuck 'em. 😉 Well, I think that the direction that govt. intrusion has taken over the last 13-ish years is very concerning and I don’t think that things are going to get _better_ if people just accept it with a shrug. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/19 "2013-08-18T23:27:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So far as I’m concerned, the government can have every piece of communication I have ever made in any media whatsoever, and if they find anything interesting I hope they will let me know. Just because you are a supremely dull fellow, luci, it does not mean your online communications cannot be used to gin up a charge or thousand against you. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198/20 "2013-08-19T01:37:45Z")
Its hard for me to care about this considering I trust Obama on this issue. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ex-staffer-of-senator-lashes-out-at-obama-administration-for-secrecy-about-spying-on-american-public/666198.md?page=2)