# Exactly what is meant that the Jews are God's chosen people? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 1, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exactly-what-is-meant-that-the-jews-are-gods-chosen-people/158405 "2003-03-01T16:50:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 4\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exactly-what-is-meant-that-the-jews-are-gods-chosen-people/158405/61 "2003-03-05T23:11:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malthus \* > \*\*Putting this all together, I take away from the discussion that there is no really firm scriptural basis for the concepts of “heaven” and “hell” - more of a speculation based on the inherent nature of the Diety, being one of infinite mercy and justice. This speculation may lead to the conclusion that a heaven and hell exists, but not necessarily. \*\* Well, again from the Orthodox perspective… Everyone will agree that heaven and hell exist. In Judaism, the oral traditions that came with the written Torah (which today are codified in the Talmud) are just as authoritative as the written text. Since the Talmud states (in no unambiguous terms) that heaven and hell exist, all Orthodox Jews will agree that they do. However, since the Talmud is short on details of the nature of heaven and hell, and such similar subjects (as I said earlier, this was not the main focus of study in the study halls where the Talmud was codified), there is no clear consensus on these subjects. But that they exist, in the Orthodox tradition, is a certainty. > [@](#): > > \*\* > The term “gathered unto his people” sounds somewhat ambiguous to me, as it could be as is reasoned by Zev a reference to the afterlife, but could also be a conventional phrase simply meaning death (as in “he is with the ancestors now”, which may or may not be meant literally). \*\* That could be argued. But again, since the Talmud definitively states that there is an afterlife, all Orthodox Jews will agree on that fact. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Actually, I find this form of reasoning more logical than a detailed description of the afterlife - after all, the soul of Saul aside, no-one has actually returned from the dead to describe it (unless one accepts the Christian resurrection of Christ, and he didn’t leave a detailed description in any event). So the best we can do, if believers in a transendental diety, is reason from first principles. \*\* Indeed, this can be done, and is supported based on **CK** said. Since we know that God is just and fair, and yet we see in this world that there are times that the wicked prosper and the good suffer; it can be reasoned (if you posit a Just God, of course) that there must be an afterlife where all accounts are reckoned properly; where the good receive thier reward and where the wicked recieve their punishment. In fact, Maimonides made this point one of his 13 Articles of Faith. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exactly-what-is-meant-that-the-jews-are-gods-chosen-people/158405/62 "2003-03-06T03:12:18Z")
I thank you both, Zev and CK. You have cleared up some issues which were confusing me. Soon, I really must look into examining the Talmud in more detail. I keep hearing that it is the Talmud which exists at the heart of Jewish thought, so it would be a shame to remain ignorant of what it contains. However, I must admit to being a trifle intimidated at its sheer size. Can you guys recommend any on-line sources in English as a starting point? ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exactly-what-is-meant-that-the-jews-are-gods-chosen-people/158405/63 "2003-03-06T12:47:07Z")
Jews are the “chosen people” because of our world-famous cuisine as exemplified by koshering, which was described by someone (P.J. O’Rourke?) as “the ancient Jewish art of removing all the flavor from food.” For instance, there is kugel (from the Aramaic word for ‘mucilage’), gefilte fish (invented solely as a vehicle for horseradish) and kasha which, in addition to being as nutritious and flavorful as kapok, can also be molded, stained and sanded with a fine-grit carborundum wheel. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exactly-what-is-meant-that-the-jews-are-gods-chosen-people/158405/64 "2003-03-06T14:45:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Malthus \* > \*\*I thank you both, Zev and CK. You have cleared up some issues which were confusing me. > > Soon, I really must look into examining the Talmud in more detail. I keep hearing that it is the Talmud which exists at the heart of Jewish thought, so it would be a shame to remain ignorant of what it contains. > > However, I must admit to being a trifle intimidated at its sheer size. > > Can you guys recommend any on-line sources in English as a starting point? \*\* To my knowledge, all the English language translations that are available are still under copyright and not freely available on the web. You can, however, pick them up in Judaica shops. However, I should point out that the Talmud doesn’t read like an ordinary book. Rather, it reads like someone taking minutes at a Rabbinical debate. There are opinions offered, proofs forwarded and refutations of proofs. It can difficult, if one is not already familiar with the style, for someone to just “pick up a volume” and study on your own. There are techinical and legal terms that translate poorly into English and without a explanation of what they are, you would probably find yourself lost. Your best bet would be to find a local synagouge and find out if they offer “beginner” classes in Talmud study, and if not, if they could point you in the right direction toward one. If you can’t find one in your area, drop me an email, and I’ll see if I can find something for you. Zev Steinhardt [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/exactly-what-is-meant-that-the-jews-are-gods-chosen-people/158405.md?page=3)