EXACTLY What Percentage of Jews Were Killed in the Holocaust?

[Musicat]

@KarlGauss

From here, a country by country breakdown:

The first number is the Pre-war Jewish Population
The second number is the number of Jews exterminated
The third number is the percent exterminated
(sorry for the awkward display, but I couldn’t get it straight any other way)

Poland
3,300,000
3,000,000
90

Baltic States
253,000
228,000
90

Germany/Austria
240,000
210,000
88

Protectorate
90,000
80,000
89

Slovakia
90,000
75,000
83

Greece
70,000
54,000
77

The Netherlands
140,000
105,000
75…<snip>

Wow. Looking at it that way, it looks like Hitler nearly exterminated the entire group in some areas, and he started ca. 1939? If he could kill 90% of a population in ~4 years, imagine what would have happened if the war had continued for another year. He would have run critically short of raw material.

[Eva_Luna]

@KarlGauss

Remember, many, many Jewish villages (especially in Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus) suffered complete, literally 100% loss of their populations.

Here’s a picture of a wonderful memorial from the Treblinka extermination camp. Each rock represents a village or town that’s gone, its name etched on the stone.

If you want to get really depressed, you can read numerous accounts of the fate of various Jewish communities during WWII here. It’s chilling to read about what life was like there before the war, and how an entire way of life was nearly completely wiped out in some areas.

[qazwart]

@Alessan

What they have in common is that they all think of themselves as Jews. Or to put it another way, what they have in common is that *other people *think of them all as Jews.

If it helps, think of it as a club or as a political construct. I prefer the term “people” - as in “the Jewish People” - myself; it’s the best translation for the Hebrew term we use for ourself, Ahm.

The idea of religion vs. ethnicity is a hard concept with Jews. Common experience creates an ethnicity, and can say that Jews had a common experience of being a people who were constantly in the minority and considered outsiders where ever they settled. Judaism is also an extremely old religion. It was founded back in the days when each ethnic group had its own religion. And, the Jews had their own country for quite a while.

Shared heritage does give you an ethnicity which makes Judaism unique compared to Christianity and Islam which are solely based upon belief systems. It also helps that Christianity and Islam were out to convert foreigners while conversion never figured heavily in the Jewish religion.

However, in the end Judaism is a religion, and it would be nice if the world stopped looking at us as an outside culture. Jews in Germany were Germans. They spoke German, they listened to German music, and they liked German food. Most importantly, they were proud of their German heritage and happily served in the German army during the Franco-German war and in World War I. They only became ethnic Jews only when Germany decided they couldn’t be Germans.

One of the biggest ironies is that the German Jews were the most assimilated groups of Jews in the world. Quite a few people didn’t know they were even Jewish until the Nazis came to take them away. This isn’t to say that there was no anti-Semitism in German. That was rampant throughout German history, but the Jews in Germany, by the 20th century really thought they were as German as anyone else.

The same is true for the Sephardic community. Most Sephardic Jews in the middle east considered themselves as Arabs until the mid 20th century. They spoke Arabic, and even used the term Allah when referring to God. They ate the food in their region, adopted many of the same cultural habits. It’s that they went to a Synagogue on Saturday instead of a Mosque on Friday. In fact, in many towns, the Jews shared the local Mosque with their Muslim neighbors.

When the Vichy French tried to round up the Jews in Algeria and Morocco, the Moslem population fought against it. As far as they were concerned, the French foreign colonizer were attempting to attack their fellow Arabs. When the French Vichy government in Algers offered as a reward to the Arabs for their cooperation the property of Jews seized, many of the Muslim religious leaders denounced the practice and threatened any Muslim who cooperated.

So, yes Judaism does have cultural aspects. You have a group of people who have a common heritage. However, much of that heritage was given to us by non-Jews who determined we were an ethnic group and not a mere religion. When Jews are allowed to settle freely among another group, they quickly adopt the culture of that group. Falafels, the national dish of Israel has Arab roots. Bagels and bayles from Poland/Russia (in fact, Bayles was a town in Poland). Even the dress of certain Chasidic sets can be traced back to the clothes of the Polish nobility.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Alessan

What they have in common is that they all think of themselves as Jews. Or to put it another way, what they have in common is that *other people *think of them all as Jews.

If it helps, think of it as a club or as a political construct. I prefer the term “people” - as in “the Jewish People” - myself; it’s the best translation for the Hebrew term we use for ourself, Ahm.

Are you saying then that Mormon is an ethnicity?

[ThisOneGuy]

Are you saying then that Mormon is an ethnicity?

I can’t speak for others, but I consider myself “ethnicly mormon”. Don’t believe the religion, but it is the culture of all my family, and my upbringing.

[Alessan]

@Exapno_Mapcase

Are you saying then that Mormon is an ethnicity?

In 2000 years, it probably will be.

[MPB_in_Salt_Lake]

@ThisOneGuy

I can’t speak for others, but I consider myself “ethnicly mormon”. Don’t believe the religion, but it is the culture of all my family, and my upbringing.

There is something to this, at least for those born and raised in Utah.

Its hard to explain, but the Utah Mormon experience is more that just religion, a strong cultural component exists even for those who have never been active, practicing Mormons.
ETA—I am NOT trying to say that Mormons have a claim to the unique situation (and problems) that Jewish people have had to deal with for way too long…

[Exapno_Mapcase]

In standard English a culture is not an ethnicity and neither is a religion. Catholics are not an ethnicity. Baptists are not an ethnicity. You can talk about Southern culture but not of Southern ethnicity.

Words do change meanings as people use them in new and different ways. It’s possible that in time a sufficient number of people will talk about ethnicity in this sense that it will take on this meaning. Obviously, a certain number of people already do so.

The problem will become defining what aspects of culture are separate from aspects of religion. What are the defining aspects of Jews who identify as a non-religious group that are distinct from the religious elements they have in common and also distinct from non-Jews of similar backgrounds? I’ve never been able to come up to an answer to that question, so I define Judaism as a religion not as an ethnicity.

If you say there are aspects of Mormonism that are commonalities to non-religious Mormons it would be an interesting exercise to try to name them and see how they differ from a similar set of non-Mormons. I think you’ll find it’s harder than it seems to make it more than “I know it when I see it.”

[Shmendrik]

@Exapno_Mapcase

The problem will become defining what aspects of culture are separate from aspects of religion. What are the defining aspects of Jews who identify as a non-religious group that are distinct from the religious elements they have in common and also distinct from non-Jews of similar backgrounds? I’ve never been able to come up to an answer to that question, so I define Judaism as a religion not as an ethnicity.

I thought I made it clear in my first response to you, but the answer is simple: They tend to be more closely genetically related to each other than to the general population.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Shmendrik

I thought I made it clear in my first response to you, but the answer is simple: They tend to be more closely genetically related to each other than to the general population.

This is true for Ashkanazi Jews. It is not true for Jews worldwide. Chinese Jews are more closely related to other Chinese than to Ashkenazi Jews, just as one example. That’s a large part of my point.

[Koxinga]

@Shmendrik

I thought I made it clear in my first response to you, but the answer is simple: They tend to be more closely genetically related to each other than to the general population.

So do Mormons. So do hillbillies. So do the royal families of Europe and listees in the Social Register. Wow, I had no idea there were so many ethnicities in the world!

[Shmendrik]

@Koxinga

So do Mormons. So do hillbillies. So do the royal families of Europe and listees in the Social Register. Wow, I had no idea there were so many ethnicities in the world!

:rolleyes:

Ok, I’m not especially hung up on the word “ethnicity”. My main point has been that the statement “Judaism is a religion, period” is simply incorrect. So the most effort I’m going to expend on showing that Judaism is an ethnicity is a quick cut and paste from Wikipedia:

An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.[1][2]

^ Smith 1987[page needed]

^ Marcus Banks, Ethnicity: Anthropological Constructions (1996), p. 151 “‘ethnic groups’ invariably stress common ancestry or endogamy”.

[Exapno_Mapcase]

@Shmendrik

An ethnic group is a group of humans whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage that is real or assumed.

By that definition, every religion is an ethnicity. As I said before if enough people use it that way, someday that will be a meaning of the word.

For now, however, the idea that every religion is an ethnicity is an absurdity. The word is not used that way.

If you don’t accept that every religion is an ethnicity, then what makes the Jews more of an ethnicity than Mormons, or the Amish or Eastern Orthodox Catholics for that matter?

[Alessan]

What, exactly, is your problem with Jewish self-definition? The only way we can survive is if we stick together - why are you trying to tear us apart?

… as I said: politics. It doesn’t matter how arbitrarily your group is defined; what matters is that it’s your group.

[Dandmb50]

What’s the deal that some jews look jewish? So does that mean some gays look gay? Judism is a religious belief and being gay is a sexual preference. That’s not right.
What’s next you going to do a blood test? What peoples religious beliefs or what they do in their bedroon is no-ones concern. Treat people as people based on how they treat you.

[KarlGauss]

So you love Croatia? Of course, it was Hitler’s kindly ally and was unique in that it sponsored the only extermination camp outside of Poland - Jasenovac.

[Argent_Towers]

@Ilovecroatia

they didnt even mention this on CNN

usually if an American is killed in some other country the US government is very quick to react but guess they wont be doing that anytime soon since its run by the Jews

whats even more fascinating is that even Americans have realized that the government is being run by the Jews but even if they say that to the public they either get death threats or get kicked out of their job like Jim Moran, a Democratic Congressman from Virginia, who lost his party post after a furor over a speech in which he said US Jews are responsible for driving the Administration to war with Iraq.:angry

If the country is run by Jews, tell me, why does the US give foreign aid to Egypt? If Jews are in control, why don’t they just give twice the amount of aid to Israel? And why do they keep trying to pressure Israel to negotiate peace terms with the Arabs? If Jews were really in charge, wouldn’t America just say, “hey Israel - take over the West Bank, take over Gaza, drive all the Arabs out, move more settlers in, and if anyone protests, drop bombs on them”? If Jews were really in charge, why haven’t we had a single Jewish president or even vice-president?

And who exactly has received death threats for claiming the government is run by Jews?

Since this is your ONLY post on this forum so far, I doubt you’ll be back to answer this. And by the way, Croatia was a Nazi country that enthusiastically supported the Nazis, and murdered Jews and Serbs in death camps with great glee. The Ustasha were the most pro-actively hateful and evil Nazi allies other than the Nazis themselves and to this day Ustasha enjoys a popular following in Croatia (one of the most popular Croation bands, “Thompson,” regularly has its concerts swarmed with fascists wearing Ustasha T-shirts. So I’m not surprised that this guy loves Croatia because that country has about the shittiest record in the world when it comes to Jews.

[Colibri]

@Ilovecroatia

they didnt even mention this on CNN

usually if an American is killed in some other country the US government is very quick to react but guess they wont be doing that anytime soon since its run by the Jews

whats even more fascinating is that even Americans have realized that the government is being run by the Jews but even if they say that to the public they either get death threats or get kicked out of their job like Jim Moran, a Democratic Congressman from Virginia, who lost his party post after a furor over a speech in which he said US Jews are responsible for driving the Administration to war with Iraq.:angry

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[LonesomePolecat]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

I agree. Remember that Hitler defined a person as Jewish if they had at least one Jewish grandparent. A number of people who were born and raised as Christians found themselves murdered for being Jewish. Similarly, a number of Jews thought themselves thoroughly assimiated. So statistics based on counting Jews before and after the Hologcaust are going to be, at best, very rough approximations.

The Nuremburg Laws, according to Wikipedia:

As defined by the Nazi Nuremberg laws in 1935, a Jew (German: Volljude in Nazi terminology) was a person - regardless of religious affiliation or self-identification - who had at least three Jewish grandparents, who had been enrolled with a Jewish congregation. A person with up to two Jewish grandparents was also legally “Jewish” (so-called Geltungsjude, about in English: Jew by legal validity) if they met any of these conditions:

Were enrolled as member of a Jewish congregation when the Nuremberg Laws were issued, or joined later[3]

Were married to a Jew

Were the issue from a marriage with a Jew, which was concluded after the ban on mixed marriages

Were the issue of an extramarital relationship with a Jew, born out of wedlock after July 31, 1936.[4]

People who did not belong to these categorical conditions but had two Jewish grandparents were classified Mischling of the first degree. Someone with only one Jewish grandparent was Mischling of the second degree.[5] See Mischling Test.

The article compares this with Judaic standards:

All streams in Judaism agree that there are two routes to Jewishness: ancestry and conversion.

Regarding ancestry, Orthodox and Conservative Judaism consider the offspring of a Jewish mother to be Jewish (matrilineal descent): the ancestry of the father is irrelevant. In the postwar era, Reform Judaism adopted the innovation of patrilineal, or bilineal descent: a person with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother may also be considered Jewish if (s)he identifies as such.

Karaite Judaism, including only the Tanakh in its canon, traces Jewishness exclusively through the father’s line, (patrilineal descent).[17].

Regarding conversion, the various streams of Judaism apply different levels of stringency with respect to the prospective convert’s level of observance and commitment, but all agree that the ancestry of the convert is irrelevant. People of all parentage and backgrounds have joined and continue to join the Jewish religion.

So the question comes down to: What does being Jewish mean? Is it a matter of religion, race, ethnicity, or what? You guys go ahead and sort that out. If you want me, I’ll be at the bar.