# Examining claim of free energy **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 14, 2016, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819 "2016-08-14T19:40:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/21 "2016-08-15T17:28:55Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > I stopped at “free energy.” Solar is free energy, wind is free energy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/22 "2016-08-15T17:30:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Solar is free energy, wind is free energy. Not what we’re talking about here, though. Have you read the OP? ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/23 "2016-08-15T17:31:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Solar is free energy, wind is free energy. You can get solar panels and wind turbines for free? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/24 "2016-08-15T17:44:28Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Solar is free energy, wind is free energy. Hey, so is coal! And teams of horses! And nuclear! And every other source of energy! I mean, if you didn’t get more energy out of harnessing a team of horses to a wagon and making them pull the wagon than you did in harnessing them, you wouldn’t do it. So free energy! ---
**Author:** ![Turek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/turek/32/18782_2.png) [@Turek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Turek)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/25 "2016-08-15T17:47:44Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > Screw bill nye! I love Beakman! I had flashbacks watching that clip. Man, I loved that show. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/26 "2016-08-15T18:27:31Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > You can get solar panels and wind turbines for free? Nope, but you cant get the magnets and stuff for free either. Once you install solar, it’s free. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/27 "2016-08-15T18:30:07Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, but you cant get the magnets and stuff for free either. Once you install solar, it’s free. Do you know what is meant by the term “free energy” as it is used in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/28 "2016-08-15T18:45:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, but you cant get the magnets and stuff for free either. Once you install solar, it’s free. It is not a reference to the cost of materials-it is a reference to the pseudoscience of “[perpetual motion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion)”-a supposed means of getting a machine to work with a supply of energy from an outside source. ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/29 "2016-08-15T18:51:08Z")
Well. ☹ ☹ :mad: I must say that I am VERY disappointed in the Dope right now. Very few people in this thread even tried to give an honest, useful answer. Instead, we have post after post of snark, stupidity, hostility, and irrelevancy. And where is the moderation??? Have all the moderators in this section gone on vacation or abdicated? I count at least five people in this thread who deserve warnings. I was pretty sure, just from a casual overview, that the website I linked to was bunk, but I didn’t know **why**. I started this thread because I wanted to know **why**. **Is that really too much to ask???** **Has EVERYBODY forgotten what this site is about???** :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/30 "2016-08-15T18:58:05Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > It is not a reference to the cost of materials-it is a reference to the pseudoscience of “[perpetual motion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion)”-a supposed means of getting a machine to work with a supply of energy from an outside source. Machines work very well _with a a supply of energy from an outside source._ :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/31 "2016-08-15T18:59:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Machines work very well _with a a supply of energy from an outside source._ :rolleyes: Sorry-That was supposed to be “without”. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/32 "2016-08-15T19:00:30Z")
The “explana[tion for] this … in fairly simple language” was that the entire claim was low-value bunkum. I though the prior posters made that clear. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/33 "2016-08-15T19:02:10Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > The “explana[tion for] this … in fairly simple language” was that the entire claim was low-value bunkum. I though the prior posters made that clear. And more than one poster gave links that explained why. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/34 "2016-08-15T19:05:18Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Well. > > ☹ ☹ > :mad: > > I must say that I am VERY disappointed in the Dope right now. Very few people in this thread even tried to give an honest, useful answer. Instead, we have post after post of snark, stupidity, hostility, and irrelevancy. > > And where is the moderation??? Have all the moderators in this section gone on vacation or abdicated? I count at least five people in this thread who deserve warnings. > > I was pretty sure, just from a casual overview, that the website I linked to was bunk, but I didn’t know **why**. I started this thread because I wanted to know **why**. > Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are in thermal equilibrium with a third system, they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. This law helps define the notion of temperature. > First law of thermodynamics: When energy passes, as work, as heat, or with matter, into or out from a system, the system’s internal energy changes in accord with the law of conservation of energy. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible. > Second law of thermodynamics: In a natural thermodynamic process, the sum of the entropies of the interacting thermodynamic systems increases. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible. > Third law of thermodynamics: The entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches absolute zero.[2] With the exception of non-crystalline solids (glasses) the entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically close to zero, and is equal to the logarithm of the product of the quantum ground states. > **Is that really too much to ask???** > > **Has EVERYBODY forgotten what this site is about???** > > :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are in thermal equilibrium with a third system, they are in thermal equilibrium with each other. First law of thermodynamics: When energy passes, as work, as heat, or with matter, into or out from a system, the system’s internal energy changes in accord with the law of conservation of energy. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the first kind are impossible. Second law of thermodynamics: In a natural thermodynamic process, the sum of the entropies of the interacting thermodynamic systems increases. Equivalently, perpetual motion machines of the second kind are impossible. Third law of thermodynamics: The entropy of a system approaches a constant value as the temperature approaches absolute zero. With the exception of non-crystalline solids (glasses) the entropy of a system at absolute zero is typically close to zero, and is equal to the logarithm of the product of the quantum ground states. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/35 "2016-08-15T19:06:25Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/36 "2016-08-15T19:08:29Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > I was pretty sure, just from a casual overview, that the website I linked to was bunk, but I didn’t know **why**. I started this thread because I wanted to know **why**. I thought there have been enough responses already. There’s nothing substantive in the web site to debunk _or_ confirm. And what little there _is_ doesn’t seem to make much sense. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/37 "2016-08-15T19:21:57Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Well. > > ☹ ☹ > :mad: > > I must say that I am VERY disappointed in the Dope right now. Very few people in this thread even tried to give an honest, useful answer. Instead, we have post after post of snark, stupidity, hostility, and irrelevancy. > > And where is the moderation??? Have all the moderators in this section gone on vacation or abdicated? I count at least five people in this thread who deserve warnings. > > I was pretty sure, just from a casual overview, that the website I linked to was bunk, but I didn’t know **why**. I started this thread because I wanted to know **why**. > > **Is that really too much to ask???** > > **Has EVERYBODY forgotten what this site is about???** > > :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: What do you mean “why it won’t work”? It won’t work because perpetual motion machines are impossible. If someone told you that you could pour water into your car’s gas tank and it would work just as well as gasoline, would you just dismiss what he said? Or would you get excited about this possible new technology of water-powered cars? This guy is selling a perpetual motion machine. We can’t debunk the exact reason his machine won’t work, because he doesn’t actually give any specifics. All we can say is that perpetual motion machines can’t work, and that anyone selling a perpetual motion machine is a fraud. Again, we can’t explain exactly why this particular machine is a fraud, because we don’t have that machine in front of us to experiment with. We just know it’s a fraud for the same reason you know the son of the Nigerian finance minister who just emailed you for help getting money out of the country is a fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/38 "2016-08-15T19:35:55Z")
Or to put it another way, suppose your car broke down, and you asked Doperdom Assembled, “Why won’t my car’s engine work?” Unless you can give us detailed information about the state of your car’s engine, or let a mechanic look at your engine, how could we tell the reason your engine won’t work? Maybe the spark plugs are broken. Maybe you ran out of gas. Maybe you’ve got a banana in your tailpipe. Maybe the car has been sitting in a lonely field for 40 years and the engine is a lump of rusty metal. Maybe your battery is dead. Maybe the connector to your battery has come loose. There are literally thousands of ways that you car might stop working. There’s no reason to expect people to be able to figure out the specific reason your specific car doesn’t work without a lot more information than the sorts of things you gave us. A simple “MAGNETS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY!” is enough. I understand you’re not claiming that the perpetual motion machine works, and you’re asking why it doesn’t work, not claiming it might work. But unless we know how the machine is supposed to work we can’t tell you the exact reason it won’t work, all we can do is tell you that it won’t work. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/39 "2016-08-15T19:36:12Z")
The Laws of Thermodynamics, simplified: 1. You can never do any better than breaking even 2. You can’t break even unless you’re at Absolute Zero 3. You can’t reach Absolute Zero. it’s that simple. you cannot get more energy out of something than you put into it. people who boast they can are of one of three groups: 1. hucksters 2. people who make basic errors such as measuring apparent power (Volt\*Amp) instead of real power (Watts) 3. people who don’t realize there is un-accounted for energy entering the system. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2016, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819/40 "2016-08-15T19:45:23Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > Well. > > ☹ ☹ > :mad: > > I must say that I am VERY disappointed in the Dope right now. Very few people in this thread even tried to give an honest, useful answer. Instead, we have post after post of snark, stupidity, hostility, and irrelevancy. > > And where is the moderation??? Have all the moderators in this section gone on vacation or abdicated? I count at least five people in this thread who deserve warnings. > > I was pretty sure, just from a casual overview, that the website I linked to was bunk, but I didn’t know **why**. I started this thread because I wanted to know **why**. > > **Is that really too much to ask???** > > **Has EVERYBODY forgotten what this site is about???** > > :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: What are you going on about? Obvious BS is obvious. Period. if a man claims things can fall up in defiance of gravity, but doesn’t show how? No reason to disprove it, it’s already been disproved by all of modern physics. > [@](#): > > I’ll show you how the same amount of metered electricity can do twice as much work, when a magnetic field is properly applied to the circuit. > > I’ll show you a new kind of electric motor that can speed up and produce more power without drawing more electricity. “I’ll show you fear in a handful of dust”. T. S. Eliot [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-claim-of-free-energy/762819.md?page=3)