# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/181 "2015-01-03T16:59:57Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Claiming smoked salmon as Scottish is bound to piss off the New Scots, i.e. [Nova Scotians.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lox) > > Be very afraid. The claim is based on the fact that the first cold brining of Scottish Salmon was carried out in London [Redirect Notice](https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&sqi=2&ved=0CDsQFjAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F388544%2Flondon-cure-smoked-scottish-salmon-spec.pdf&ei=FB6oVJDqMaLW7AaK2oDoDg&usg=AFQjCNGPfp_LwuVHYHfVh0jjyLYI64H8Fw&bvm=bv.82001339,d). Claiming that the process was inherited from the Jewish immigrants in the early 1800s. This has been seen as a threat by the Scottish Smoked Salmon industry that is likely to oppose the claim on the grounds of current location of the process. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/182 "2015-01-03T17:02:44Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Separation referendum are disruptive and divisive. No one wants another any time soon except for hardcore Yes voters. I predict a minimum ten year wait despite what some hear in their echo chambers. As I have said- ten year maximum before the dam breaks. Could easily be before if a major disjuncture occurs- federation by ELEV without a moderating system for joint functions, gross mismanagement of Scottish sensitivities or withdrawal from the European Union. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/183 "2015-01-03T17:18:06Z")
Again, Scotland is only slightly more Europhile than the UK in general so you’re just delusional thinking that’s going to be some flashpoint. There’s plenty of things that could delay the “winning conditions” you’re dreaming of intead of speeding them. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/184 "2015-01-03T17:32:40Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No. I have said that I would be happy to have a Scottish passport, but have never claimed in any manner to be culturally Scottish. Who said culturally? ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/185 "2015-01-03T17:34:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > A generation in genealogy is seen as sufficient time for a family group to replace itself, and the convention is three generations to a century > > Your own cite supports this: > > ‘In developed nations the average familial generation length is in the high 20s and has even reached 30 years in some nations.’ 100/3 = 33 1/3 years which is more than ANY of the nations that the Wikipedia article cites. So you’d be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/186 "2015-01-03T17:49:02Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Sorry, forgot to add “Straw man” to the list of things you reply with instead of actually debating. Yes it is one of the things that makes reading the pjen obsessive threads on the scotland, even when you do not really care about the issue, it is amusing, the misuse of the logical argument phrases and the clear evasions. > [@Pjen](#): > > As before you ignore the possibility of settlement by international law via The Hague. They ruled on the Kosovo problem which had been an integral part of Yugoslavia then Serbia. Also things like this where in the other thread this concept was completely refuted but in the pjen world it matters only what is believed. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/187 "2015-01-03T18:00:54Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Again, Scotland is only slightly more Europhile than the UK in general so you’re just delusional thinking that’s going to be some flashpoint. There’s plenty of things that could delay the “winning conditions” you’re dreaming of intead of speeding them. It is somewhat more europhile than the UK as a whole, but does not have a rabid anti-European component so common in England. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/188 "2015-01-03T18:02:16Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > 100/3 = 33 1/3 years which is more than ANY of the nations that the Wikipedia article cites. > > So you’d be wrong. Try reading the rest of the cite. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/189 "2015-01-03T18:04:04Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Yes it is one of the things that makes reading the pjen obsessive threads on the scotland, even when you do not really care about the issue, it is amusing, the misuse of the logical argument phrases and the clear evasions. > > Also things like this where in the other thread this concept was completely refuted but in the pjen world it matters only what is believed. It was rebutted but certainly not refuted. Refutation involves proof, rebuttal merely contrary evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/190 "2015-01-03T18:07:31Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is somewhat more europhile than the UK as a whole, but does not have a rabid anti-European component so common in England. Being rabidly anti-European is far from common in England. Being _somewhat_ anti-European, but in a civilised and rational sense, is far more so. There’s a reason the vast majority of people - like, 90% or so - think UKIP is a laughing stock. The majority of the English aren’t _strongly_ nationalistic, by which I mean that whatever nationalistic feelings they have, they aren’t that important to them. Or do you really think that someone who’s glad that the UK is not in the Euro, and would consider voting to leave the EU if significant reforms aren’t made, to be _rabidly_ anti-Europe? Because that describes me, and I don’t think I know anyone more anti-Europe than me, although plenty that have similar views. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/191 "2015-01-03T18:11:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It was rebutted but certainly not refuted. Refutation involves proof, rebuttal merely contrary evidence. It was proved that international law has nothing to say about a negotiated settlement separating two states. Your constant claims that international law would prevent a settlement whereby the rUK keeps, in one form or another, military bases that are in what is currently part of Scotland, are demonstrably false. And your belief that Scotland will attempt to secede rather than negotiate the future of the bases is absurd. It simply won’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/192 "2015-01-03T18:12:15Z")
Oh, and the custom is 4 generations a century, not 3. Just another thing you’re wrong about. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/193 "2015-01-03T18:20:18Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is somewhat more europhile than the UK as a whole, but does not have a rabid anti-European component so common in England. Strawman. I said it wouldn’t be a flashpoint for another referendum not that there’s a rabid anti-EU component. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/194 "2015-01-03T18:39:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It was rebutted but certainly not refuted. Refutation involves proof, rebuttal merely contrary evidence. It is for the entertaining exercises like this that I read these threads. For the other readers, it was already shown that the primary governing precept of the international law is the non-interference in sovereign territories, which the kosovo case was contested, but had the argument of the ethnic cleansing risk and the genocide risk that had already by the serbian state been tried in Bosnia. There is no There is no case for pjen in this area and it is an example of a strange and not very reliable demarche she takes. reading her posts makes one sympathetic to the english. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/195 "2015-01-03T18:45:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The claim is based on the fact that the first cold brining of Scottish Salmon was carried out in London Aha, shifting the goalposts in a fishy manner. Cold brining is not [smoking](http://www.verlasso.com/conversation/article/the-history-of-smoked-salmon/). _"We can be reasonably sure that people around the world enjoyed smoked fish since nearly the dawn of time, but better evidence suggests that the earliest fish smoking “factory” dates to the seventh century A.D. in Poland._ So now you’ve insulted the Poles and the Jews, not to mention the Paleolithics. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/196 "2015-01-03T18:51:41Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > So now you’ve insulted the Poles and the Jews, not to mention the Paleolithics. First, they came for their smoked salmon, then they came for their driving licences… ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/197 "2015-01-04T00:14:47Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Have been re-reading this thread and am impressed how much effort is being placed on personal abuse and flaming, and how little on the important questions of what effect Scottish devolutionist fervour will have and how this could be exacerbated by decisions made in Westminster. You keep starting these threads with “different” subjects, and they all boil down to arguing that, “Scotland wants to be independent.” I’d also suggest that if you’re that concerned about the personal abuse and flaming, that you stop throwing fuel on the fire. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/198 "2015-01-04T02:43:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland I tried reading this thread but it doesn’t make much sense. What do flags on money or smoked salmon have to do with the Westminster Kennel Club placing a Scottish Terrier second in the Terrier Group to a Smooth Fox Terrier? Other than dogs like smoked salmon? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/199 "2015-01-04T06:59:00Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > As before you ignore the possibility of settlement by international law via The Hague. They ruled on the Kosovo problem which had been an integral part of Yugoslavia then Serbia. Do you know anything about the history of Kosovo, or the Balkans in general? Because to use such a comparison is asinine. (If this were a conversation about _Ireland_, it might have merit. Scotland? You’ve gotta be shitting me.) ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/200 "2015-01-04T08:19:17Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Do you know anything about the history of Kosovo, or the Balkans in general? Because to use such a comparison is asinine. (If this were a conversation about _Ireland_, it might have merit. Scotland? You’ve gotta be shitting me.) This is a problem with long arguments. The contention by Steophan was that any decision about territory would be solely a Scotland- rUK issue. I contended that there was international law relating to territory and other national assets. I quoted the Kosovo decision merely to reinforce my argument about there being established international law on the issue. I do not say that any specifics apply, merely that there is a supra-national set of law on the issue. It should be noted that he used the same technique over the Rothman decision which I quoted to show that there was such a thing as European Citizenship and that the EU could require states to not remove such citizenship, which the Rothman decision clearly supports; be tried to decry the fact by involving himself in the intricacies of the case in its specific decision rather than the general rules on all citizenship laid down in the arguments supporting the final decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=11)