# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/201 "2015-01-04T08:23:09Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You keep starting these threads with “different” subjects, and they all boil down to arguing that, “Scotland wants to be independent.” > > I’d also suggest that if you’re that concerned about the personal abuse and flaming, that you stop throwing fuel on the fire. I always find flaming and piling on amusing as they are indicative of frustration and an admission of having no effective argument. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/202 "2015-01-04T08:32:39Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > 100/3 = 33 1/3 years which is more than ANY of the nations that the Wikipedia article cites. > > So you’d be wrong. ‘In developed nations the average familial generation length is in the high 20s and has even reached 30 years in some nations.’ Nitpick there have been claims from others that a generation is twenty or twenty five years implying five or four to a century. Actually it is close to three to a century as I have said. If you look at mean age of middle children- the genealogical generation, it is somewhat higher than sociological methods. And in Western countries generations are lengthening as women delay having children for social reasons. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/203 "2015-01-04T08:43:12Z")
Maybe a dumb question, but how is the Union Jack “anglocentric”, when it was originally (without the Cross of St. Patrick) ordered by a Scottish king in honor of him inheriting the English throne. If the government wanted to be anglocentric, they’d be putting the Cross of St. Andrew on stuff. The Union Jack is sort of the opposite of anglocentric…it’s saying the UK is England and Scotland, and puts the two on an equal level. Also, isn’t the question of how long a “generation” is sort of off the point? We can all agree it’s more than a few years. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/204 "2015-01-04T09:34:09Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I always find flaming and piling on amusing as they are indicative of frustration and an admission of having no effective argument. I think you’re simply waiting for everyone to get so tired of arguing with someone who has the same canned responses to everything that they all walk away. Then you can raise your hands high, “See, they have no effective argument! Winner!” ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/205 "2015-01-04T10:09:13Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Maybe a dumb question, but how is the Union Jack “anglocentric”, when it was originally (without the Cross of St. Patrick) ordered by a Scottish king in honor of him inheriting the English throne. If the government wanted to be anglocentric, they’d be putting the Cross of St. Andrew on stuff. The Union Jack is sort of the opposite of anglocentric…it’s saying the UK is England and Scotland, and puts the two on an equal level. > > Also, isn’t the question of how long a “generation” is sort of off the point? We can all agree it’s more than a few years. It is anglocentric in that public display of the Union Flag is quite acceptable to the majority of people in England, but much less favoured in Scotland. Save for formal British Government buildings it is rarely seen in Scotland save for Rangers and Hearts football matches. The generation argument arose when someone who had previously claimed a generation necessity between referenda to a couple of decades. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/206 "2015-01-04T10:12:08Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I think you’re simply waiting for everyone to get so tired of arguing with someone who has the same canned responses to everything that they all walk away. Then you can raise your hands high, “See, they have no effective argument! Winner!” The opposite in fact. I expect this thread or similar ones to illustrate the gradual separation of some kind between the two governments. The SNP could be in a very good bargaining position in only four months, and look likely to be returned to government Scotland in 2016 on a ‘home rule’ manifesto. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/207 "2015-01-04T12:11:10Z")
Currently trending on Nationalist sites is the rumour that the Bank of England is ceasing to honour interbank agreements about Scottish Sterling notes, requiring foreign banks to only return these to the Scottish issuing banks in Scotland. It may be just a scare story, but it is indicative of sensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/208 "2015-01-04T12:26:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I always find flaming and piling on amusing as they are indicative of frustration and an admission of having no effective argument. It is more amusing the delusion required of a person to believe this is true. It is more true that observers such as myself, francophone and not caring about the England and the United kingdom and the Scotland have been drawn like the moths to the light by the bad arguments and bad use of logic as a kind of fascination. Personally it was your repetition of falsehoods about the international law. This and the misuse of strawman to evade response. > [@Pjen](#): > > This is a problem with long arguments. No it is the problem with the distortions and the half arguments and a person who never acknowledges being completely wrong (as in law you are very frequently like with the corporate law). > [@](#): > > I quoted the Kosovo decision merely to reinforce my argument about there being established international law on the issue. and this is false and it is not established practice as was shown for the cases which are not involved with the genocide. The established practice and the dominant rule is in fact non intervention in the internal sovereign affaires if there is not the overriding humanitarian question of the genocide. It is a gross distortion to say the least. But you continue to promote the idea because it fits your desired beliefs and outcomes. > [@Frank](#): > > I think you’re simply waiting for everyone to get so tired of arguing with someone who has the same canned responses to everything that they all walk away. Then you can raise your hands high, “See, they have no effective argument! Winner!” Yes this fits the manner in which she responds and evades (the misuse of the straw man being the most amusing and the most transparent of these) the factual things that do not fit the desired result for her beliefs. it is still amusing to see very strange and funny ideas like the salmon brought forth as argument, I have become a little sympathetic to the UK from her just from reading these demarches. If this is what they face, but perhaps it is only the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/209 "2015-01-04T13:40:40Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You keep starting these threads with “different” subjects, and they all boil down to arguing that, “Scotland wants to be independent.” I’d like to second this. Pjen needs to either start a running thread in MPSIMS or a blog. This “hey look a new article that might support the idea that Scottish independence is becoming more popular” is annoying. There’s no debate here and Pjen demonstrably isn’t interested in one anyway. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/210 "2015-01-04T13:41:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Currently trending on Nationalist sites is the rumour that the Bank of England is ceasing to honour interbank agreements about Scottish Sterling notes, requiring foreign banks to only return these to the Scottish issuing banks in Scotland. > > It may be just a scare story, but it is indicative of sensitivity. And could well be utter bollocks. Let’s find out rather than “rumours on nationalist sites”. The run up to the referendum had tonnes of this crap from the pro-Independence people. I know because relatives of mine kept sharing them on Facebook. My favourite was the claim that whilst they’d all been distracted with the referendum the National Service Act had entered the second reading and those English bastards were going to force National Service on us all. Of course spending thirty seconds on google found [this](http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/nationalservice.html). Yet these people complained about “Bitter Together” spreading lies. Amusingly they are also sharing a lot of Russia Today videos which tell “the truth” whilst saying that the BBC is just propaganda. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/211 "2015-01-04T13:48:08Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Being rabidly anti-European is far from common in England. Being _somewhat_ anti-European, but in a civilised and rational sense, is far more so. There’s a reason the vast majority of people - like, 90% or so - think UKIP is a laughing stock. The majority of the English aren’t _strongly_ nationalistic, by which I mean that whatever nationalistic feelings they have, they aren’t that important to them. > > Or do you really think that someone who’s glad that the UK is not in the Euro, and would consider voting to leave the EU if significant reforms aren’t made, to be _rabidly_ anti-Europe? Because that describes me, and I don’t think I know anyone more anti-Europe than me, although plenty that have similar views. Indeed. There are also loads of people out there that like Europe but are angry about the way the EU was forced upon the British people. My Parents are exactly that way - they voted yes to the Common Market in 1975 and would really like to have that system. They are furious that they’ve never been asked since about the creating of the EU. Hell, I tell people here in Sweden that we never had a referendum about the UK and they are gobsmacked (Sweden had a referendum in 1995 before joining in 1995). I’m convinced that this is the source of most of UKIP’s popularity. Not anti-Europe per se, just angry about how they were never asked. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/212 "2015-01-04T14:25:52Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > And could well be utter bollocks. Let’s find out rather than “rumours on nationalist sites”. The run up to the referendum had tonnes of this crap from the pro-Independence people. I know because relatives of mine kept sharing them on Facebook. My favourite was the claim that whilst they’d all been distracted with the referendum the National Service Act had entered the second reading and those English bastards were going to force National Service on us all. Of course spending thirty seconds on google found [this](http://services.parliament.uk/bills/2013-14/nationalservice.html). > > Yet these people complained about “Bitter Together” spreading lies. Amusingly they are also sharing a lot of Russia Today videos which tell “the truth” whilst saying that the BBC is just propaganda. Both sides engaged in identical scare tactics. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/213 "2015-01-04T17:06:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is anglocentric in that public display of the Union Flag is quite acceptable to the majority of people in England, but much less favoured in Scotland. Save for formal British Government buildings it is rarely seen in Scotland save for Rangers and Hearts football matches. It’s not favored by Scottish nationalists, and those who take the line that the UK is a bad thing. But offensive to nationalists doesn’t equal anglocentric. You might say it’s UK-centric, I guess, but it also reflects the reality that Scotland is part of the UK, even if it’s rubbing Nationalist noses in it a bit. It’s not necessarily the wisest or most mature thing for the government to do, but it’s not anglocentric. > [@](#): > > The generation argument arose when someone who had previously claimed a generation necessity between referenda to a couple of decades. Right, but it’s a stupid argument, because a generation IS a couple of decades. Whether it’s 2 or 3 is kind of irrelevant at this point. The whole thing is sort of a red herring. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/214 "2015-01-04T17:56:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It may be just a scare story, but it is indicative of sensitivity. No, it’s indicative of the abject paranoia of Nationalists and the alternative reality they now inhabit, and something the rest of the country should pay no heed to. Anybody remember the Nationalist claims that devolution was going to be reversed if Scotland voted no, prior to the referendum? How National Service was just about to be reintroduced? How David Cameron had flown to the Shetlands to view a “secret” new oilfield? How MacRae had been bumped off by MI5 in the 1970s? How supposed videos of ballots being stuffed and “yes” votes being moved into “no” piles during the referendum count emerged. How the sea off the West of Scotland is absolutely filled with oil but the Royal Navy refuses to allow anybody to drill there due to Trident? The weird alternative-history version of how Scotland came to enter the Union in the first place common amongst Nationalists, etc. etc. This is just one more in a steady stream of fantastical claims spread by headbangers frequenting echo chambers like Wings over Scotland. The longer this divisive bullshit goes on the more convinced I am that Spain has the best idea when it comes to referendums on independence: refuse to even countenance the idea and threaten to send the army in should anybody even try to hold one. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/215 "2015-01-04T20:26:05Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s not favored by Scottish nationalists, and those who take the line that the UK is a bad thing. But offensive to nationalists doesn’t equal anglocentric. You might say it’s UK-centric, I guess, but it also reflects the reality that Scotland is part of the UK, even if it’s rubbing Nationalist noses in it a bit. It’s not necessarily the wisest or most mature thing for the government to do, but it’s not anglocentric. > > Right, but it’s a stupid argument, because a generation IS a couple of decades. Whether it’s 2 or 3 is kind of irrelevant at this point. The whole thing is sort of a red herring. Couple is defined as two. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/216 "2015-01-04T20:34:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Currently trending on Nationalist sites is the rumor… This sounds about as reliable as citing the latest rumor on Tea Party websites. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/217 "2015-01-04T20:39:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Couple is defined as two. It is useful that you are so unreliable, it makes me look things up to know better. > [@](#): > > **[_a couple of_](http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/a-couple-of)** > > ``` > **Definitions** > > ``` > > (functioning as singular or plural) > [ol] > [li]a combination of two; a pair of ⇒ a couple of men[/li]li a small number of; a few ⇒ a couple of days[/li][/ol] or > [@](#): > > [3\* informal\*](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/couple) An [indefinite](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/indefinite) [small](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/small) number:\* [as pronoun]:\* _he [hoped](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/hope) she’d be better in **a couple of** days__we got some [eggs](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/egg#egg)—would you [like](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/like#like-2) a couple?_ \* [as determiner]:\* _just a couple more [questions](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/question)_ _North American__[clean](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/clean) the [stains](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/stain) with a couple [squirts](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/squirt) [dishwashing](http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/dishwasher) liquid_ ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/218 "2015-01-04T21:06:52Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > No, it’s indicative of the abject paranoia of Nationalists and the alternative reality they now inhabit, and something the rest of the country should pay no heed to. > > Anybody remember the Nationalist claims that devolution was going to be reversed if Scotland voted no, prior to the referendum? How National Service was just about to be reintroduced? How David Cameron had flown to the Shetlands to view a “secret” new oilfield? How MacRae had been bumped off by MI5 in the 1970s? How supposed videos of ballots being stuffed and “yes” votes being moved into “no” piles during the referendum count emerged. How the sea off the West of Scotland is absolutely filled with oil but the Royal Navy refuses to allow anybody to drill there due to Trident? The weird alternative-history version of how Scotland came to enter the Union in the first place common amongst Nationalists, etc. etc. > > This is just one more in a steady stream of fantastical claims spread by headbangers frequenting echo chambers like Wings over Scotland. The longer this divisive bullshit goes on the more convinced I am that Spain has the best idea when it comes to referendums on independence: refuse to even countenance the idea and threaten to send the army in should anybody even try to hold one. It does seem like the equivalent of your crazy Fox News watching uncle on Facebook. Perhaps it’s from living an entire life in a federal system, but so many of these “insults” seem like non-issues to me. Official flags on official documents? How bank notes are being redeemed from foreign sources? And I still don’t understand the whole smoked salmon thing, unless it’s one of those “protected origin” things that Americans generally don’t recognize or care about. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/219 "2015-01-04T21:12:03Z")
Hah. I’m pleased so many ‘uninterested’ people (in whether Scotland becomes independent or not) are finding PJen’s logic crooked. It assures me the Scots will be about as sceptical. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/220 "2015-01-04T21:20:18Z")
This is giving me flashbacks to the Quebec referendum from the 90s. Not as racist, but full of the same ‘we wuz robbed!’ self-delusion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=12)