# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/41 "2015-01-01T10:47:12Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I can hear it now "straw man straw man! I never said Ireland was like Scotland. I merely said that Ireland is a great example to show how Scotland is getting screwed by comparison! " But there is a difference between saying that there are parallels between two situations, and real identification between the two. I suspect that Westminster will make very similar errors in dealing with Scottish nationalism as it did in dealing with Irish nationalism. Small affront and dragging of feet alienating more and more of the people. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/42 "2015-01-01T12:23:24Z")
The Union flag _is_ your flag. Your country voted to keep that a few months ago, remember? If nationalists feel affronted by that, tough. They lost, it’s their problem to deal with, not anyone else’s. These petty attempts to find anything, no matter how tiny, to take offence at discredit the nationalists, and by extension their cause. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/43 "2015-01-01T12:31:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I suspect that Westminster will make very similar errors in dealing with Scottish nationalism as it did in dealing with Irish nationalism. Small affront and dragging of feet alienating more and more of the people. I don’t recall Ireland ever being given a referendum, so you’re wrong straight off the bat. And the UK didn’t cause problems in Ireland with “small affronts”, they did so by (in no particular order) starving and criminalising their population, leading to a massive exodus, actually directly massacring the Irish on several occasions from at least the time of Cromwell, attempting to suppress their religion and culture, and denying them effective representation and participation in the Union as equals. None of which has happened to Scotland, and your comparison of the two remains absurd and insulting. Scotland has, for over 300 years, been an equal member of the Union, and in many ways gets special treatment. I honestly don’t know where you get this bizarre persecution complex from, but it has no basis in fact. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/44 "2015-01-01T12:45:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The Union flag _is_ your flag. Your country voted to keep that a few months ago, remember? If nationalists feel affronted by that, tough. They lost, it’s their problem to deal with, not anyone else’s. These petty attempts to find anything, no matter how tiny, to take offence at discredit the nationalists, and by extension their cause. Nationalist sentiment seems to be higher now than before the referendum. A large minority reject the Union Flag as a symbol of the opposition. This sentiment needs to be recognised and dealt with. You cannot force people to accept symbols they reject. I do wonder where your expertise on Scottish affairs comes from. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/45 "2015-01-01T12:46:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Correct about the EU. But any currency for the time being. I expect that in years to come it will be obvious why the whole of Europe eventually chose the Euro. Really? Why? You should look at Paul Krugman’s criticism of the Euro. Monetary union without fiscal union takes central banking tools out of the hands of the European periphery, while not adding any mechanism of the state to take alternative action in the face of deflation and double-digit unemployment. Adopting the Euro is in essence dollarizing your money with the Deutsche Mark. You’re better off with the pound. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/46 "2015-01-01T12:49:06Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t recall Ireland ever being given a referendum, so you’re wrong straight off the bat. And the UK didn’t cause problems in Ireland with “small affronts”, they did so by (in no particular order) starving and criminalising their population, leading to a massive exodus, actually directly massacring the Irish on several occasions from at least the time of Cromwell, attempting to suppress their religion and culture, and denying them effective representation and participation in the Union as equals. > > None of which has happened to Scotland, and your comparison of the two remains absurd and insulting. Scotland has, for over 300 years, been an equal member of the Union, and in many ways gets special treatment. > > I honestly don’t know where you get this bizarre persecution complex from, but it has no basis in fact. Parallels, not identity. Straw man again. Before 1922 Irish sentiment was equally split between accommodation and independence ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/47 "2015-01-01T12:50:34Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Really? Why? > > You should look at Paul Krugman’s criticism of the Euro. Monetary union without fiscal union takes central banking tools out of the hands of the European periphery, while not adding any mechanism of the state to take alternative action in the face of deflation and double-digit unemployment. > > Adopting the Euro is in essence dollarizing your money with the Deutsche Mark. You’re better off with the pound. I am talking decades and possibly a century. The US dollar faced similar major fictions over its early life. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/48 "2015-01-01T14:01:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > This sentiment needs to be recognised and dealt with. No, actually it doesn’t. It’s a silly argument, based on pretending to take offence over nothing, and the best thing Westminster could do is ignore it, and proceed as planned. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/49 "2015-01-01T14:03:11Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Parallels, not identity. Straw man again. Nonsense. There are no parallels between how the Union (including Scotland) treated Ireland, and how Scotland is treated by the Union. Take Braveheart out of your DVD player for an hour or two and study some real history. Then, hopefully, grovel for forgiveness from any passing Irishmen who see your absurd claim and react accordingly. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/50 "2015-01-01T14:06:37Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am talking decades and possibly a century. The US dollar faced similar major fictions over its early life. So you want to subject Scotland to recession or even depression for decades or possibly a century just to get away from Perfidous Albion? That really shows how badly thought out your ideas are. You have come up with not one single reason why Scotland would be better off independent in any of these threads, and no refutations to the repeated statements that Scotland is far better off in the Union. Relying on imagined symbol-based slights to bolster a failed nationalist agenda is frankly pathetic, and actively wishing to harm Scotland’s economy is worse. Enjoy being the next Greece should your dreams come true. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/51 "2015-01-01T14:06:58Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, actually it doesn’t. It’s a silly argument, based on pretending to take offence over nothing, and the best thing Westminster could do is ignore it, and proceed as planned. Your attitude is welcome if adopted by your fellow conservatives, essentially driving more undecided into the nationalist camp. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/52 "2015-01-01T14:12:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So you want to subject Scotland to recession or even depression for decades or possibly a century just to get away from Perfidous Albion? That really shows how badly thought out your ideas are. > > You have come up with not one single reason why Scotland would be better off independent in any of these threads, and no refutations to the repeated statements that Scotland is far better off in the Union. Relying on imagined symbol-based slights to bolster a failed nationalist agenda is frankly pathetic, and actively wishing to harm Scotland’s economy is worse. > > Enjoy being the next Greece should your dreams come true. Straw man again. And purposely misreading what I said. I expect that within a generation European integration will be so much closer in terms of national wealth and income that the Euro will become more palatable and more widely used as the economies converge further. Have you ever even visited Scotland? How do you assess the mood of the Scottish people, current and future? Are you sure you are not mistaking your sentiment for reality? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/53 "2015-01-01T14:19:53Z")
I assess the mood of the Scottish people based on their voting to stay in the Union. As for my sentiment, I don’t have much sentimental attachment to the Union, I just recognise that it works well, and there’s no reason at all to think that splitting it would improve anything. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/54 "2015-01-01T14:37:42Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I assess the mood of the Scottish people based on their voting to stay in the Union. As for my sentiment, I don’t have much sentimental attachment to the Union, I just recognise that it works well, and there’s no reason at all to think that splitting it would improve anything. So from a one off vote on independence alone you feel free to predict the feelings of all Scots for all time, even about Devo max or Home rule. I think we can disregard your sentiments. You seem very reluctant to say if you have actually visited the country, Scotland, about which you feel so free to characterise as being firmly unionist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/55 "2015-01-01T14:56:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > So from a one off vote on independence alone you feel free to predict the feelings of all Scots for all time, even about Devo max or Home rule. > > I think we can disregard your sentiments. > > You seem very reluctant to say if you have actually visited the country, Scotland, about which you feel so free to characterise as being firmly unionist. No, I’ve told you before I’ve never been there. And the more people that disregard sentiments when it comes to politics the better, so please do - just make sure to disregard your own too. You seem very reluctant to acknowledge that the people of Scotland voted to stay in the Union. I don’t really give a shit about their sentiments, as we all know that nationalist sentiment is much higher that nationalist votes, because people by and large aren’t that stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/56 "2015-01-01T15:13:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I’ve told you before I’ve never been there. And the more people that disregard sentiments when it comes to politics the better, so please do - just make sure to disregard your own too. > > You seem very reluctant to acknowledge that the people of Scotland voted to stay in the Union. I don’t really give a shit about their sentiments, as we all know that nationalist sentiment is much higher that nationalist votes, because people by and large aren’t that stupid. You do overdo it with straw man arguments. I have never said that nationalism was not rejected last year. What I do say is that that decision is open to change over the next few years. And current polling suggests that people are not satisfied with the current level of devolution, and that has yet to be put to a formal national vote. I expect further major devolution beyond the current proposals within the next five years. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/57 "2015-01-01T15:46:39Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You do overdo it with straw man arguments. I have never said that nationalism was not rejected last year. What I do say is that that decision is open to change over the next few years. And current polling suggests that people are not satisfied with the current level of devolution, and that has yet to be put to a formal national vote. > > I expect further major devolution beyond the current proposals within the next five years. Have any of these polls allowed Scots to specify how they are dissatisfied with the current level of devolution, or is it simply ‘yes’ and ‘no’? And are the claimed ‘improvements’ to devolution expressed in these polls, or do political parties say it for them? It’s as problematic as what I see with polling on the EU in the UK. Polls say they are dissatisfied with how the EU runs, but nobody says exactly how, and it’s left to nutters like Farage to ‘speak’ on our behalf. And when Cameron says he’ll renegotiate, there’s nothing specific to say what would be considered a satisfactory change that would make a majority desire to remain in the EU. Again, instead, Farage can simply claim it’s not enough, regardless of whether it’s an amazing deal or not. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/58 "2015-01-01T17:17:01Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Have any of these polls allowed Scots to specify how they are dissatisfied with the current level of devolution, or is it simply ‘yes’ and ‘no’? And are the claimed ‘improvements’ to devolution expressed in these polls, or do political parties say it for them? > > It’s as problematic as what I see with polling on the EU in the UK. Polls say they are dissatisfied with how the EU runs, but nobody says exactly how, and it’s left to nutters like Farage to ‘speak’ on our behalf. And when Cameron says he’ll renegotiate, there’s nothing specific to say what would be considered a satisfactory change that would make a majority desire to remain in the EU. Again, instead, Farage can simply claim it’s not enough, regardless of whether it’s an amazing deal or not. Even before the narrowing of the polls in the autumn, people wanted more devolution [http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-poll-backs-more-devolution-1-3256693](http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-poll-backs-more-devolution-1-3256693) By 71% to 29%. For years over 50% have wanted Holyrood to control welfare and taxes > **[What should happen next if Scotland votes No? - What Scotland Thinks](https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/what-should-happen-next-if-scotland-votes-no/)** > > – Currently over 75% “Should be able to set its own corporation tax?” Over 70% two weeks ago. > **[Should Scotland be able to set its own corporation tax rate? - What Scotland...](https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-able-to-set-its-own-corporation-tax-rate/)** > > – “Do the Smith Commission proposals go too far, are about right, or don’t go far enough?” Over 80% > **[Do the Smith Commission proposals go too far, are about right, or don't go...](https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-the-smith-commission-proposals-go-too-far-are-about-right-or-dont-go-far-eno/)** > > – “Do you think powers over taxes other than income tax should be devolved to the Scottish government, or remain with Westminster?” Over 75% > **[Do you think powers over taxes other than income tax should be devolved to...](https://www.whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-powers-over-taxes-other-than-income-tax-should-be-devolved-to-the/)** > > – From the same site Housing Benefit an Job seekers 45% Health and safety regulations, consumer protection and competition law 65% Do you think how elections to the Scottish parliament are run should be devolved to the Scottish government, or remain with Westminster? 85% Do you believe the new powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament should include all areas except defence and foreign affairs (ie ‘Devo Max’)? 75% VAT 70% AND if Devo max had been on the ballot paper 33% Independence, 29% Devolutionmax, 28% Current status. Pretty comprehensive I would say. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/59 "2015-01-01T17:26:44Z")
Holyrood has power over taxes that it’s never exercised. Whilst I’ve no doubt that Scotland will get the level of devolution it wants, I can’t fathom why one would want further powers to go to a Parliament that’s refused to use the powers it has. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/60 "2015-01-01T17:29:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > AND if Devo max had been on the ballot paper > > 33% Independence, 29% Devolutionmax, 28% Current status. > > Pretty comprehensive I would say. So, two thirds of Scots want to keep the Union, if possible. How does that match with your continued claims that independence is massively popular? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=4)