# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/61 "2015-01-01T17:31:26Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Holyrood has power over taxes that it’s never exercised. Whilst I’ve no doubt that Scotland will get the level of devolution it wants, I can’t fathom why one would want further powers to go to a Parliament that’s refused to use the powers it has. That’s it. Ignore the obvious wave of desire for considerable further devolution and concentrate on a non issue. Please respond to those rather impressive figures above. The UK parliament has unlimited powers yet chooses not to use them. Does that make Westminster incompetent because it does not choose to use such powers? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/62 "2015-01-01T17:49:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, two thirds of Scots want to keep the Union, if possible. How does that match with your continued claims that independence is massively popular? And more than two thirds are in favour of considerably more devolution than currently on offer. Congratulations on choosing the only statistic that remotely supports your anglocentric view. And congratulations on another Straw man - as you have been reminded regularly, I support Home Rule in a federated state but believe the stress between Westminster and Hollywood will force independence. And a further straw man- I have noted that on another poll without devomax/ home rule, just short of 60% would now vote for independence but about 80% want devomax. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/63 "2015-01-01T18:07:16Z")
I don’t think you know what a straw man is… ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/64 "2015-01-01T18:16:05Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I don’t think you know what a straw man is… Nor do you, I believe, which is why you keep on using such arguments. To help you, a straw man argument is one that imputed to an opponent an opinion which they do not hold and which is easy to prove wrong in order to claim a debating victory. For instance the example above where you accuse me of being an outright supporter of independence, point out that the figures I quoted are pro union and against independence, and then go on to imply that I have undermined my own position, thus claiming a false debating victory for yourself by using an argument that I had not myself initially advanced. But do go on making a fool of yourself with your scatter gun approach. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/65 "2015-01-01T18:17:03Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Congratulations on choosing the only statistic that remotely supports your anglocentric view. Why is this anglocentric? Unionist-centric, possibly, but you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the only Unionists are English. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/66 "2015-01-01T18:17:59Z")
Perhaps you would like to address the obvious support for massive further devolution among the Scottish electorate. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/67 "2015-01-01T18:18:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nationalist sentiment seems to be higher now than before the referendum. A large minority reject the Union Flag as a symbol of the opposition. This sentiment needs to be recognised and dealt with. You cannot force people to accept symbols they reject. > > I do wonder where your expertise on Scottish affairs comes from. Mine comes from a rocks glass with a couple of fingers of Johnny Walker Black or Gold and some water. First the oil will run out, and then the peat. You can’t charge a royalty to the world for golf and plaid. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/68 "2015-01-01T18:19:18Z")
So, help me out a bit more. Since you are imputing to me an argument I haven’t made, what does that make _your_ argument? Not every argument you disagree with is a straw man, and not every argument I advance to do with independence is directly related to your views. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/69 "2015-01-01T18:19:49Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Why is this anglocentric? Unionist-centric, possibly, but you seem to be jumping to the conclusion that the only Unionists are English. I am assuming that Steophan is a Little Englander by his posts. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/70 "2015-01-01T18:21:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, help me out a bit more. Since you are imputing to me an argument I haven’t made, what does that make _your_ argument? > > Not every argument you disagree with is a straw man, and not every argument I advance to do with independence is directly related to your views. Which false argument have I imputed to you? ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/71 "2015-01-01T18:27:53Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am assuming that Steophan is a Little Englander by his posts. Could you describe for me what you consider a ‘Little Englander’ to be? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/72 "2015-01-01T19:00:52Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Could you describe for me what you consider a ‘Little Englander’ to be? Someone with an entirely anglocentric attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/73 "2015-01-01T19:16:04Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Perhaps you would like to address the obvious support for massive further devolution among the Scottish electorate. What’s to address? Scotland will probably get that devolution in the next few years, and England will get English votes for English laws in some form. I doubt many people think anything else will happen, although plenty will share my misgivings about it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/74 "2015-01-01T19:18:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am assuming that Steophan is a Little Englander by his posts. > [@Pjen](#): > > Which false argument have I imputed to you? No further reply needed. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/75 "2015-01-01T19:20:12Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Someone with an entirely anglocentric attitude. Then that’s flawed - as I said, criticising the cause of independence does not necessarily make one anglocentric, or a ‘Little Englander’. This says more about you than it does of Steophan. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/76 "2015-01-01T19:23:49Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Someone with an entirely anglocentric attitude. So, you’ve missed the many, many posts I’ve made where I argue that remaining in the Union is in Scotland’s best interests? Or my argument that some form of European union is an entirely good idea, and that my objections to the current EU are practical rather than philosophical? That would have been easier to miss, it was only a couple of posts. Or my repeated posts about how badly Ireland was treated by the Union, and specifically England? Hell, I’ll even criticise Thatcher if it will make you feel better. (But I’ll also slag off Scargill whilst doing so). ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/77 "2015-01-01T19:55:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, you’ve missed the many, many posts I’ve made where I argue that remaining in the Union is in Scotland’s best interests? > > Or my argument that some form of European union is an entirely good idea, and that my objections to the current EU are practical rather than philosophical? That would have been easier to miss, it was only a couple of posts. > > Or my repeated posts about how badly Ireland was treated by the Union, and specifically England? Hell, I’ll even criticise Thatcher if it will make you feel better. (But I’ll also slag off Scargill whilst doing so). Which is an Anglocentric attitude, especially when expressed so forcefully and aggressively. But your arguments are diversionary and off topic- another debating fallacy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/78 "2015-01-01T20:10:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which is an Anglocentric attitude, especially when expressed so forcefully and aggressively. > > But your arguments are diversionary and off topic- another debating fallacy. Nonsense on both counts. But hey, keep up the ad hominems, if we’re keeping score of debating fallacies. Or perhaps try to address my actual arguments, rather than avoiding all of them. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/79 "2015-01-01T20:12:41Z")
So back on topic. Given the apparent demand for further devolution, I expect to see this tendency to be increased by unthinking unaware and offensive attitudes from Westminster. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/80 "2015-01-01T20:14:57Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Which is an Anglocentric attitude, especially when expressed so forcefully and aggressively. > > But your arguments are diversionary and off topic- another debating fallacy. It is not an anglocentric attitude. It is a **Unionist** attitude. There are Scottish people who would firmly agree with Steophan and are as proud of Scotland and as Nationalist and Alex Salmond. You’re quite free to disagree with what Steophan says but your repeated attempts to pigeonhole him as if only an Englishman or someone who dislikes Scotland can have those views. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=5)