# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/81 "2015-01-01T20:17:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Nonsense on both counts. But hey, keep up the ad hominems, if we’re keeping score of debating fallacies. Or perhaps try to address my actual arguments, rather than avoiding all of them. You will find, should you research the matter, that ad nominee does not apply to the expressed opinions of a debating opponent. If I had said you had no standing because you were English, that would be ad hominem. What I criticised was the content of your posts so far as they indicated your attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/82 "2015-01-01T20:25:11Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > It is not an anglocentric attitude. It is a **Unionist** attitude. There are Scottish people who would firmly agree with Steophan and are as proud of Scotland and as Nationalist and Alex Salmond. > > You’re quite free to disagree with what Steophan says but your repeated attempts to pigeonhole him as if only an Englishman or someone who dislikes Scotland can have those views. That’s because Pjen isn’t making an argument. He’s just cheerleading. Cheerleading every bump in the polls and SNP press release, jeering every opponent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/83 "2015-01-01T20:37:54Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You will find, should you research the matter, that ad nominee does not apply to the expressed opinions of a debating opponent. While l agree that your calling his views “anglocentric” isn’t an _ad hominem_, you sure do offer an extraordinary example of the No True Scotsman fallacy by claiming those views are necessarily anglocentric. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/84 "2015-01-01T20:58:47Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > While l agree that your calling his views “anglocentric” isn’t an _ad hominem_, you sure do offer an extraordinary example of the No True Scotsman fallacy by claiming those views are necessarily anglocentric. Nice jibe but it is not a " no true Scotsman" argument ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/85 "2015-01-01T21:13:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nice jibe but it is not a " no true Scotsman" argument That doesn’t negate his point, though. Rather than simply saying you disagree (which you appear to shrink from doing as it would require you to extend equal validity and respect to Steophan’s views), you try to invalidate them as inherently anglo-centric, when that’s neither true nor relevant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/86 "2015-01-01T22:40:17Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Nice jibe but it is not a " no true Scotsman" argument Ugh. Of course it is. He must be English (and not Scottish) because No True Scotsman would hold those views. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/87 "2015-01-01T22:44:55Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. Of course it is. He must be English (and not Scottish) because No True Scotsman would hold those views. No. I was going from a whole series of both sceptical remarks and those verging on abusive. The "no true Scotsman’ is not to do with defining categories, but to do who continual moving of goalposts to ensure the end you desire. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/88 "2015-01-01T22:54:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > No. I was going from a whole series of both sceptical remarks and those verging on abusive. > > The "no true Scotsman’ is not to do with defining categories, but to do who continual moving of goalposts to ensure the end you desire. It can be either. You can set it up from the beginning, or back into it slowly. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/89 "2015-01-01T23:01:27Z")
For fuck’s sake not again. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/90 "2015-01-01T23:22:45Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I am assuming that Steophan is a Little Englander by his posts. Having just done 10 minutes of research I’m ruling that “Little Englander” is pejorative in this case and therefore an insult. Pjen, if you can’t control yourself on this subject you should leave it alone. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2015, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/91 "2015-01-01T23:28:33Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > For fuck’s sake not again. Innit. Here’s the perspective of another person who lives in Scotland, one who isn’t fucking obsessed: - The referendum was a solid “No” - it’s a done deal for many years - The SNP day-to-day Holyrood governance is actually pretty competent, and will be more so under Nicola Sturgeon, who I have a great respect for. Salmond shouldn’t stand for Westminster, he failed at his great project, and to keep a high profile will undermine his successor. - The inflated SNP numbers predicted for the next Westminster elections will go back to usual-ish levels. Labour will lose _some_ Westminster seats, but people in Scotland are pretty good at voting to exclude Tories. - The Smith proposals will be implemented in full. As part of that, Westminster will sort out a deal to address the West Lothian Question. It’s a fracture in our democracy, to be honest. It’ll need a steady hand on the tiller do deliver though. - And in the glorious sunlit uplands of the future, Scotland will once again qualify for a World Cup ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/92 "2015-01-02T08:08:45Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Having just done 10 minutes of research I’m ruling that “Little Englander” is pejorative in this case and therefore an insult. > > Pjen, if you can’t control yourself on this subject you should leave it alone. “Little Englander” is as much part of normal political discussion in the UK as Euro-fanatic, or neo-conservative or communist. It is a statement of political position and world view and is no more pejorative than any other appellation used by a political opponent. It is no different from the false descriptions of me as a Scottish extreme n or plastic Jock. And certainly less pejorative than previous episodes where Steophan has implied that my separatist views are tantamount to terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/93 "2015-01-02T08:11:58Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Even before the narrowing of the polls in the autumn, people wanted more devolution > > [http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-poll-backs-more-devolution-1-3256693](http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-poll-backs-more-devolution-1-3256693) > > By 71% to 29%. > For years over 50% have wanted Holyrood to control welfare and taxes > > [http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/what-should-happen-next-if-scotland-votes-no#line](http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/what-should-happen-next-if-scotland-votes-no#line) > > Currently over 75% > “Should be able to set its own corporation tax?” > > Over 70% two weeks ago. > > [Should Scotland be able to set its own corporation tax rate? - What Scotland Thinks](http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/should-scotland-be-able-to-set-its-own-corporation-tax-rate) > > “Do the Smith Commission proposals go too far, are about right, or don’t go far enough?” > > Over 80% > > [Do the Smith Commission proposals go too far, are about right, or don't go far enough? - What Scotland Thinks](http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-the-smith-commission-proposals-go-too-far-are-about-right-or-dont-go-far-) > > “Do you think powers over taxes other than income tax should be devolved to the Scottish government, or remain with Westminster?” > > Over 75% > > [http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-powers-over-taxes-other-than-income-tax-should-be-devolved-to-the](http://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/do-you-think-powers-over-taxes-other-than-income-tax-should-be-devolved-to-the) > From the same site > > Housing Benefit an Job seekers 45% > > Health and safety regulations, consumer protection and competition law 65% > > Do you think how elections to the Scottish parliament are run should be devolved to the Scottish government, or remain with Westminster? 85% > > Do you believe the new powers devolved to the Scottish Parliament should include all areas except defence and foreign affairs (ie ‘Devo Max’)? 75% > > VAT 70% > AND if Devo max had been on the ballot paper > > 33% Independence, 29% Devolutionmax, 28% Current status. > > Pretty comprehensive I would say. Malden Capell asked for reliable polls about Scottish attitudes. I provided the above. Any comments on this series of rather impressive results indicating the dissatisfaction of the Scottish electorate? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/94 "2015-01-02T08:14:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > “Little Englander” is as much part of normal political discussion in the UK as Euro-fanatic, or neo-conservative or communist. It is a statement of political position and world view For what it’s worth, I fully agree that it’s not an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/95 "2015-01-02T08:16:48Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Malden Capell asked for reliable polls about Scottish attitudes. I provided the above. Any comments on this series of rather impressive results indicating the dissatisfaction of the Scottish electorate? They show that the Scottish people want further devolution whilst remaining in the Union. Which is what is going to happen. The only dissatisfaction seems to be with the colour of the rosettes that the Westminster government wear, rather than the actual policies. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/96 "2015-01-02T08:34:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > They show that the Scottish people want further devolution whilst remaining in the Union. Which is what is going to happen. The only dissatisfaction seems to be with the colour of the rosettes that the Westminster government wear, rather than the actual policies. And how the just demands of the Scottish peel for further devolution are met will directly affect the number of people willing to vote for independence. The last campaign saw the figures move from 25% to 45% and mismanagement of the Scottish problem could quite easily lead to separation. The above figures show that if home rule (all government decisions save military and diplomatic/ foreign policy were devolved, there would likely be a majority for that. Westminster parties need to accept the will of the Scottish people and act to keep them in the union if the ratchet effect is not to drive them towards independence. The feeling up here, and not just within the SNP, is that considerable further devolution must follow. Interestingly, English votes for English laws will feed this desire. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/97 "2015-01-02T09:52:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > “Little Englander” is as much part of normal political discussion in the UK as Euro-fanatic, or neo-conservative or communist. It is a statement of political position and world view and is no more pejorative than any other appellation used by a political opponent. It is no different from the false descriptions of me as a Scottish extreme n or plastic Jock. And certainly less pejorative than previous episodes where Steophan has implied that my separatist views are tantamount to terrorism. I wouldn’t read it as that. Little Englander has a particularly sinister, unpleasant connotation with the Daily Mail reading, UKIP voting, foreigner-hating stripe that many on this board would find difficult to give the time of day. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/98 "2015-01-02T10:43:00Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > I wouldn’t read it as that. Little Englander has a particularly sinister, unpleasant connotation with the Daily Mail reading, UKIP voting, foreigner-hating stripe that many on this board would find difficult to give the time of day. But is no more insulting than “euro-fanatic” or “neo-conservative”. All it implies is a closed-minded concentration on one nationalist and political position. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/99 "2015-01-02T10:44:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > All it implies is a closed-minded concentration on one nationalist and political position. Well that certainly describes _someone_ in this conversation… ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/100 "2015-01-02T10:52:10Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > But is no more insulting than “euro-fanatic” or “neo-conservative”. All it implies is a closed-minded concentration on one nationalist and political position. That’s not ‘all’ it implies. I agree those other terms are connotation heavy too, which is why I haven’t condoned those, either. In the context of this particular discussion, Little Englander has a particularly unpleasant and judgmental, discussion-ending ring to it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=6)