# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/101 "2015-01-02T10:52:19Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > All it implies is a closed-minded concentration on one nationalist and political position. Do you have any self-awareness at all? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/102 "2015-01-02T11:07:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Well that certainly describes _someone_ in this conversation… Straw man again. I am not a nationalist but a devolutionist. I am warning against the dangers of British nationalists driving increasing numbers of Scots not the separatist camp. I found myself drifting from the devomax camp towards total independence during the campaign be a use of the offensive Better Together campaign. I am just warning that with the narrow gap between unionist and nationalist tendencies (one in twenty unionists need to change their vote for parity) that British nationalists need to bev[U very careful how they tart devolutionist sentiment over the next few years. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/103 "2015-01-02T11:09:22Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > That’s not ‘all’ it implies. I agree those other terms are connotation heavy too, which is why I haven’t condoned those, either. In the context of this particular discussion, Little Englander has a particularly unpleasant and judgmental, discussion-ending ring to it. As does ‘terrorist’ which was allowed about my views on the possibility of some form of insurrection in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/104 "2015-01-02T11:13:19Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Do you have any self-awareness at all? See my explanation above. You are blaming the messenger. I think separation is made more likely by Westminster actions, but do not desire it, preferring federalism or home rule with appropriate checks and balances. I believe that separation would be possible and legal, but fraught with economic and political problems, but not necessarily undesirable to future Scottish opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/105 "2015-01-02T11:18:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > As does ‘terrorist’ which was allowed about my views on the possibility of some form of insurrection in Scotland. Honestly, the suggestion that there would be an insurrection in Scotland while the UK is a democracy is laughable and just makes you look silly. Your apparent propensity to jump straight to an insurrection and overlook the unexhausted options for peaceful negotiation which lie in the middle can open you up to the accusation of favouring violence over discussion of differences, so what do you expect? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/106 "2015-01-02T11:55:00Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Honestly, the suggestion that there would be an insurrection in Scotland while the UK is a democracy is laughable and just makes you look silly. Your apparent propensity to jump straight to an insurrection and overlook the unexhausted options for peaceful negotiation which lie in the middle can open you up to the accusation of favouring violence over discussion of differences, so what do you expect? I merely suggested that there could be Greenham Common type protests outside Faslane with civil disobedience trying to stop trucks entering and leaving. I was accused of advocating terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/107 "2015-01-02T11:59:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I merely suggested that there could be Greenham Common type protests outside Faslane with civil disobedience trying to stop trucks entering and leaving. I was accused of advocating terrorism. That hasn’t worked in the 32 years that a camp has been at Faslane for just this purpose. What makes you think it will be any different in the future? ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/108 "2015-01-02T12:02:06Z")
She doesn’t know that there has been a camp there for 32 years. That much is obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/109 "2015-01-02T12:08:51Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > She doesn’t know that there has been a camp there for 32 years. That much is obvious. Christ, I know. These threads are so fucking frustrating though. Hey everyone, we aren’t all like this! Please come visit, it’s a really nice country. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/110 "2015-01-02T12:15:46Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That hasn’t worked in the 32 years that a camp has been at Faslane for just this purpose. What makes you think it will be any different in the future? Independence. Steophan rather contentiously suggested that if push came to shove, Rump UK would merely retain Coulport and Faslane as UK territory for as long as they wished. I said that that would not be seen as entirely beneficial in Scotland and might lead to some form of insurrection. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/111 "2015-01-02T12:17:43Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > She doesn’t know that there has been a camp there for 32 years. That much is obvious. Not merely a camp but "Greenham Common type protests outside Faslane with civil disobedience trying to stop trucks entering and leaving. " and civil disobedience. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/112 "2015-01-02T12:22:37Z")
Yes, that’s been happening for the past three decades. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/113 "2015-01-02T12:31:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Independence. Steophan rather contentiously suggested that if push came to shove, Rump UK would merely retain Coulport and Faslane as UK territory for as long as they wished. I said that that would not be seen as entirely beneficial in Scotland and might lead to some form of insurrection. Do you honestly believe that there is sufficient latent anti-nuke sentiment in the country that will be unleashed in the aftermath of independence that it will make much of a difference? 32 years of the massively successful Faslane Peace Camp suggests it’s pretty niche. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/114 "2015-01-02T12:34:32Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Do you honestly believe that there is sufficient latent anti-nuke sentiment in the country that will be unleashed in the aftermath of independence that it will make much of a difference? 32 years of the massively successful Faslane Peace Camp suggests it’s pretty niche. I suspect that if rUK unilaterally tried to hold on to Scottish land and an access waterway, there would be feelings of national humiliation. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/115 "2015-01-02T12:34:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Independence. Steophan rather contentiously suggested that if push came to shove, Rump UK would merely retain Coulport and Faslane as UK territory for as long as they wished. I said that that would not be seen as entirely beneficial in Scotland and might lead to some form of insurrection. Yes, and I correctly pointed out that “some form of insurrection” against another country’s military bases is terrorism. I’m not accusing you of supporting terrorism, I’m pointing out that you have suggested it might occur. As far as I can tell, _no-one_ thinks that there will be anything other than a peaceful, negotiated settlement in Scotland, whatever level of devolution or independence comes to pass. You’re the one who’s been contemplating the potential for some level of unlawful action should those negotiations not go the way that… well, some amorphous group of disgruntled Scots, presumably… wants. To my knowledge, there is no such group, and no nationalist organisation that’s even considering it. Stop watching Braveheart for a minute and look at the real world.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/116 "2015-01-02T12:37:14Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I suspect that if rUK unilaterally tried to hold on to Scottish land and an access waterway, there would be feelings of national humiliation. There’s not a fucking chance anything will happen unilaterally. It’s only in your fantasies that anything like that would happen. Not least because Faslane _is_ in the UK, and will remain so until the UK takes action to change that. No action of any sort is necessary to hold it indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/117 "2015-01-02T12:41:44Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I suspect that if rUK unilaterally tried to hold on to Scottish land and an access waterway, there would be feelings of national humiliation. How is that even an option? Seriously, what bizarre version of Scotland are you living in? Have a look at Cyprus, and ponder the negotiated Sovereign Base Areas. That’s what Faslane and Coulport would look like post-indy. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/118 "2015-01-02T12:44:13Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > There’s not a fucking chance anything will happen unilaterally. It’s only in your fantasies that anything like that would happen. Not least because Faslane _is_ in the UK, and will remain so until the UK takes action to change that. No action of any sort is necessary to hold it indefinitely. The sovereign land of a successor state is not really up for negotiation beyond temporary lease until the bases are replaced. Even Westminster itself proposed to replace the bases should Scotland vote for independence. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/119 "2015-01-02T12:45:58Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > How is that even an option? Seriously, what bizarre version of Scotland are you living in? Have a look at Cyprus, and ponder the negotiated Sovereign Base Areas. That’s what Faslane and Coulport would look like post-indy. Except that Westminster and Better Together used the removal of Coulport and Faslane and consequent loss of jobs as a reason for voting NO. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/120 "2015-01-02T12:48:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, and I correctly pointed out that “some form of insurrection” against another country’s military bases is terrorism. I’m not accusing you of supporting terrorism, I’m pointing out that you have suggested it might occur. > > As far as I can tell, _no-one_ thinks that there will be anything other than a peaceful, negotiated settlement in Scotland, whatever level of devolution or independence comes to pass. You’re the one who’s been contemplating the potential for some level of unlawful action should those negotiations not go the way that… well, some amorphous group of disgruntled Scots, presumably… wants. To my knowledge, there is no such group, and no nationalist organisation that’s even considering it. > > Stop watching Braveheart for a minute and look at the real world.\*\* Insurrection is not necessarily terrorism. Please use words correctly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=7)