# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/141 "2015-01-02T20:13:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > In your very humble opinion. You have no legal basis for the statement. You honestly think I have no legal basis for saying Scotland is part of the UK? Are you fucking serious? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/142 "2015-01-02T20:50:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This is what’s so frustrating about this discussion. It’s not like people in England are flying the Union Flag on a regular basis (unless they’re insane nationalists), the only flag you’ll regularly see here is the flag of St George. Using the Union flag specifically on UK Government documents seems like the exact usage it’s designed for. > > I’m beginning to think **pjen** really does believe that Scotland is being oppressed in the way Ireland was, which is an indefensible viewpoint. Otherwise, there’s no reason to bring up the issue in Northern Ireland. > > Now, if anyone outside England was being expected to use the _English_ flag, it would be a different matter, but the Union flag is not, and has never been, the English flag. Wait and see what the population think about the Union Jack being forced on them. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/143 "2015-01-02T20:51:53Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You honestly think I have no legal basis for saying Scotland is part of the UK? Are you fucking serious? Cite please for rump states having dibs on any part of separating states. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/144 "2015-01-02T20:56:44Z")
Even when Ukraine separated from Russia, they kept the Crimea that had been part of Russia only fifty years earlier. Serbia has not been allowed enclaves in Serbian majority areas of Kosovo. It might be worth you looking at the history of the Treaty Ports in Ireland which are a rather interesting parallel. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/145 "2015-01-02T20:57:52Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Wait and see what the population think about the Union Jack being forced on them. You mean like wait and see what the population think of the EU flag being forced on them? I predict the overwhelming majority will be rather indifferent either way. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/146 "2015-01-02T21:00:21Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Cite please for rump states having dibs on any part of separating states. Do you mean separating states that secede peacefully with the rump states’ assent, or one that unilaterally declares independence? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/147 "2015-01-02T21:31:12Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > This is what’s so frustrating about this discussion. It’s not like people in England are flying the Union Flag on a regular basis (unless they’re insane nationalists), the only flag you’ll regularly see here is the flag of St George. Using the Union flag specifically on UK Government documents seems like the exact usage it’s designed for. > > I’m beginning to think **pjen** really does believe that Scotland is being oppressed in the way Ireland was, which is an indefensible viewpoint. Otherwise, there’s no reason to bring up the issue in Northern Ireland. > > Now, if anyone outside England was being expected to use the _English_ flag, it would be a different matter, but the Union flag is not, and has never been, the English flag. That’s the thing. What \*\*Pjen \*\*doesn’t seem to realize is that this isn’t a conflict between nationalism and colonialism - it’s a conflict between Scottish nationalism and British nationalism. In effect, it’s a argument as to whether England and Scotland are in fact different nations, or simply the northern and southern halves of the same nation-state. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/148 "2015-01-02T21:41:55Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Even when Ukraine separated from Russia, they kept the Crimea that had been part of Russia only fifty years earlier. You really do come up with the most hilariously bad examples. Lol. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/149 "2015-01-02T22:00:38Z")
Hey Pjen, shouldn’t a Caledonian Freedom Fighter like yourself write your posts in the [mother tongue](http://www.nipolicingboard.org.uk/index/languages/ulsterscots.htm) instead of the Queen’s English? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/150 "2015-01-02T23:04:21Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You really do come up with the most hilariously bad examples. Lol. Well, no. For nearly 25 years the Crimea remained part of Ukraine with a lease back arrangement that did not offend Ukrainians. The situation in Scotland may well differ. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/151 "2015-01-02T23:10:11Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Hey Pjen, shouldn’t a Caledonian Freedom Fighter like yourself write your posts in the [mother tongue](http://www.nipolicingboard.org.uk/index/languages/ulsterscots.htm) instead of the Queen’s English? 😛 I happen to be English. Ulster Scots is unknown in Scotland where the language used ranges from Northern English through Scots to Scottish Gaelic. Most people speak fairly standard English with added dialect words. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/152 "2015-01-02T23:30:15Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I happen to be English. Ulster Scots is unknown in Scotland where the language used ranges from Northern English through Scots to Scottish Gaelic. Most people speak fairly standard English with added dialect words. Ulster Scots is much closer to Scots or Gaelic than English is. Anyhow, I think you have established on this board that you alternately identify as English, Scottish, British or Irish, whichever suits you at a particular moment. (ETA: I forgot “an EU member” as well) I’d actually be curious as what persona you’d take on if you ever moved to Dublin. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/153 "2015-01-02T23:45:06Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Ulster Scots is much closer to Scots or Gaelic than English is. Anyhow, I think you have established on this board that you alternately identify as English, Scottish, British or Irish, whichever suits you at a particular moment. (ETA: I forgot “an EU member” as well) I’d actually be curious as what persona you’d take on if you ever moved to Dublin. I have never identified as Scottish. So many straw men. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2015, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/154 "2015-01-02T23:51:54Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Ulster Scots is much closer to Scots or Gaelic than English is. Anyhow, I think you have established on this board that you alternately identify as English, Scottish, British or Irish, whichever suits you at a particular moment. (ETA: I forgot “an EU member” as well) I’d actually be curious as what persona you’d take on if you ever moved to Dublin. Ulster Scots is NOT related to Gaelic; nor is Scots related to Gaelic. Both contain a few loan words of Gaelic origin. Syntactically Gaelic and lollans are unrelated and are in completely different language families. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/155 "2015-01-03T00:26:20Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Well, no. For nearly 25 years the Crimea remained part of Ukraine with a lease back arrangement that did not offend Ukrainians. The situation in Scotland may well differ. It may well differ? You don’t say? ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/156 "2015-01-03T01:23:33Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Ulster Scots is much closer to Scots or Gaelic than English is. Oh for fucks sake. That’s quite an impressive amount of wrong to squeeze into twelve words. ---
**Author:** ![LC\_Strawhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e19adc/32.png) [@LC\_Strawhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LC_Strawhouse)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/157 "2015-01-03T01:52:04Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > Oh for fucks sake. That’s quite an impressive amount of wrong to squeeze into twelve words. Looking at it again, I shouldn’t have said “or Gaelic”. :o ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/158 "2015-01-03T07:27:09Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Cite please for rump states having dibs on any part of separating states. That’s irrelevant. I’m saying that the states simply won’t be separating unless there’s an agreement about the military bases that is satisfactory to the rUK > [@Alessan](#): > > That’s the thing. What \*\*Pjen \*\*doesn’t seem to realize is that this isn’t a conflict between nationalism and colonialism - it’s a conflict between Scottish nationalism and British nationalism. In effect, it’s a argument as to whether England and Scotland are in fact different nations, or simply the northern and southern halves of the same nation-state. You may be right, but the term “British nationalism” has some pretty unpleasant connotations, due mainly to the horrifically racist British National Party. I don’t think there’s any conflict between considering England and Scotland separate nations, and yet supporting a unified state. “Nation”, in this sense, refers to identity, and “state” to government, and there’s no reason they have to coincide. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/159 "2015-01-03T08:42:20Z")
> [@LC\_Strawhouse](#): > > Looking at it again, I shouldn’t have said “or Gaelic”. :o Ullans (Ulster Scots) and Lollans (Scots) are very close in vocabulary and syntax. Both mere into a form of Northern English of which they are a variety. People move between Northern English and full dialects from hour to hour, changing their usage depending on situation and participants.Languages are notoriously difficult to force into a rational taxonomy and are best seen as having a familial rather than discrete relationship. Gaelic only survives as a rare everyday language where supported or required and has loaned a few words and constructions to Ullans and Lollans. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/160 "2015-01-03T08:45:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That’s irrelevant. I’m saying that the states simply won’t be separating unless there’s an agreement about the military bases that is satisfactory to the rUK > . And the Westminster plan was short term leaseback and reprovisipn in the rUK in order to threaten job losses as part of Better Together. No one has ever suggested permanent retention of an enclave. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=9)