# Examining the Effect of Westminster decisions on Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 30, 2014, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524 "2014-12-30T10:54:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/161 "2015-01-03T09:10:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Straw man. I never claimed to be Scottish. I am English born and, save for an Irish great great grandfather, English for ten generations. > > The problem is that it will be those problems of neo- colonialist or anglocentric origin that will tip the balance. Forcing the Union Jack being one, suggesting that the Scottish electorate is not mature enough to understand the arguments, claiming smoked salmon as English, suggesting that enclaves on Scottish sovereign soil could be unilaterally carved out, and many other petty slights. On top of ignoring Scottish public opinion about welfare, tax and other non devolved issues, such faux pas may be the deciding factor. Sorry, forgot to add “Straw man” to the list of things you reply with instead of actually debating. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/162 "2015-01-03T09:54:10Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > Sorry, forgot to add “Straw man” to the list of things you reply with instead of actually debating. Well, if peel stopped erecting them, I would not have to knock them down. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/163 "2015-01-03T10:37:37Z")
Have been re-reading this thread and am impressed how much effort is being placed on personal abuse and flaming, and how little on the important questions of what effect Scottish devolutionist fervour will have and how this could be exacerbated by decisions made in Westminster. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/164 "2015-01-03T11:42:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Have been re-reading this thread and am impressed how much effort is being placed on personal abuse and flaming, and how little on the important questions of what effect Scottish devolutionist fervour will have and how this could be exacerbated by decisions made in Westminster. That’s because everyone agrees that it will lead to further devolution but not independence, and yet somehow you keep finding things to argue with in that statement. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/165 "2015-01-03T11:45:09Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > And the Westminster plan was short term leaseback and reprovisipn in the rUK in order to threaten job losses as part of Better Together. No one has ever suggested permanent retention of an enclave. And if Scotland didn’t agree to that, there would be no independence. It’s really that simple. The only time permanent retention was mentioned was in response to your bizarre hypothetical in another thread that Scotland might unilaterally declare independence, rather than negotiate it. Of course, all this presupposes that Scottish support for independence exists, rather than it being at something like 33% in the figures you provided. ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/166 "2015-01-03T11:46:48Z")
That’s because you’re the only one who’s still pushing this stuff. The rest of the SDMB world has lost interest and moved on. Get back to us when you’re holding another referendum. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/167 "2015-01-03T13:49:09Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And if Scotland didn’t agree to that, there would be no independence. It’s really that simple. The only time permanent retention was mentioned was in response to your bizarre hypothetical in another thread that Scotland might unilaterally declare independence, rather than negotiate it. > > Of course, all this presupposes that Scottish support for independence exists, rather than it being at something like 33% in the figures you provided. As before you ignore the possibility of settlement by international law via The Hague. They ruled on the Kosovo problem which had been an integral part of Yugoslavia then Serbia. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/168 "2015-01-03T13:50:10Z")
> [@Mk\_VII](#): > > That’s because you’re the only one who’s still pushing this stuff. The rest of the SDMB world has lost interest and moved on. Get back to us when you’re holding another referendum. The Interesting thing is the number of different routes to that future vote. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/169 "2015-01-03T13:56:22Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > As before you ignore the possibility of settlement by international law via The Hague. They ruled on the Kosovo problem which had been an integral part of Yugoslavia then Serbia. Yes, I ignore it, because I don’t believe that Scotland will attempt to unilaterally secede. Literally no-one but you entertains that possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/170 "2015-01-03T13:57:32Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The Interesting thing is the number of different routes to that future vote. How many different ways are there to wait 20 years, then see if there’s any desire for a vote? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/171 "2015-01-03T15:03:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I ignore it, because I don’t believe that Scotland will attempt to unilaterally secede. Literally no-one but you entertains that possibility. I doubt it too, but the threat could concentrate minds. after all Cameron crumbled when faced with the possibility of an informal Referendum and agreed to the formal one. Faced with a persistent demand for independence from the Scottish people one can imagine either devomax being agreed rather than risk a further independence referendum. or home rule ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/172 "2015-01-03T15:06:18Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > How many different ways are there to wait 20 years, then see if there’s any desire for a vote? That is your humble opinion (though I note that you have dropped from ‘a generation’ to two decades. IMHO there will be a revisit before 2025, and this view is quote widely held in the political discussions in the broadsheets. Fe now expect a lengthy delay. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/173 "2015-01-03T15:29:59Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > That is your humble opinion (though I note that you have dropped from ‘a generation’ to two decades. IMHO there will be a revisit before 2025, and this view is quote widely held in the political discussions in the broadsheets. Fe now expect a lengthy delay. > **[Generation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#Familial_generation)** > > A generation is all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively. It also is "the average period, generally considered to be about 20–⁠30 years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children." In kinship, generation is a structural term, designating the parent–child relationship. In biology, generation also means biogenesis, reproduction, and procreation. > Generation is also a synonym for birth/age cohort in demographics, ma... > [@](#): > > A familial generation is a group of humans constituting a single step in the line of descent from an ancestor.[4] In developed nations the average familial generation length is in the high 20s and has even reached 30 years in some nations. You are just embarrassing yourself now. Two decades has for a long, long time been an approximation to a generation. He’s just varying his language a bit. People tend to do that, you know. Oh and by the way, those routes you mention? You seem to be completely incapable of understanding that there’s a possibility of a different route, one that doesn’t end at a new referendum. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/174 "2015-01-03T15:52:56Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Well, if peel stopped erecting them, I would not have to knock them down. I’m assuming that “peel” is an autocorrect mistake and should be “people”. If so, I hope you are including yourself in that list of people setting up straw men. I mean, you clearly missed this: > [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Straw man. He never claimed you claimed to be Scottish. Which is absolutely true. Even then, what you have done is in other threads repeatedly stated about how due to your living conditions you would be considered to be Scottish upon independence. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/175 "2015-01-03T16:18:05Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > claiming smoked salmon as English Is this a joke or reference that I’m missing? You realise we have salmon in English rivers too, right, and have been smoking fish since time immemorial like any other group of people who possess the technology to both light a fire and catch a fish, not to mention Jewish immigrants bringing their variant of smoked salmon from Eastern Europe to the major English cities? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/176 "2015-01-03T16:24:17Z")
Claiming smoked salmon as Scottish is bound to piss off the New Scots, i.e. [Nova Scotians.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lox) Be very afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/177 "2015-01-03T16:46:30Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > [Generation - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation#Familial_generation) > > You are just embarrassing yourself now. Two decades has for a long, long time been an approximation to a generation. He’s just varying his language a bit. People tend to do that, you know. A generation in genealogy is seen as sufficient time for a family group to replace itself, and the convention is three generations to a century Your own cite supports this: ‘In developed nations the average familial generation length is in the high 20s and has even reached 30 years in some nations.’ ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/178 "2015-01-03T16:49:07Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > I’m assuming that “peel” is an autocorrect mistake and should be “people”. If so, I hope you are including yourself in that list of people setting up straw men. I mean, you clearly missed this: > > Which is absolutely true. Even then, what you have done is in other threads repeatedly stated about how due to your living conditions you would be considered to be Scottish upon independence. No. I have said that I would be happy to have a Scottish passport, but have never claimed in any manner to be culturally Scottish. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/179 "2015-01-03T16:53:08Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Is this a joke or reference that I’m missing? You realise we have salmon in English rivers too, right, and have been smoking fish since time immemorial like any other group of people who possess the technology to both light a fire and catch a fish, not to mention Jewish immigrants bringing their variant of smoked salmon from Eastern Europe to the major English cities? It was some storm in a teacup over one of those EU protected geographic designations, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524/180 "2015-01-03T16:55:15Z")
Separation referendum are disruptive and divisive. No one wants another any time soon except for hardcore Yes voters. I predict a minimum ten year wait despite what some hear in their echo chambers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examining-the-effect-of-westminster-decisions-on-scotland/708524.md?page=10)