# Examples of "active" mystics who self-identified as Christians? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 15, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903 "2013-09-15T10:39:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/1 "2013-09-15T10:39:16Z")
Traditionally, the mainstream Christian view seems to have been that the only acceptable mystics are the _passive_ mystics - those who wait, patiently, for the initiative of Heaven; those chilled-out beatific quietists and such, on whom revelation is bestowed through no effort of their own. If you get too impatient, too _active_ - if you try to pry Heaven open, or force God’s hand, by invocations or rituals or what have you, in order to get God and/or the angels to reveal themselves on your command - well, then that’s _magic_, and distinct from “true” Christian mysticism. Many prominent scholars of religion seem to have gone along with this - from William James and on, the mainstream scholarly view seems to have been that “passivity” is one of the defining traits of the “true” mystic (Christian or otherwise). Mircea Eliade, too, held that when you’re _passive_, that’s religion - but when you’re _active_, that’s magic. The list goes on. Well, I’m now looking for names of “active” mystics who would have disagreed with all of that, i.e. who practiced an “active” approach, be it with theurgic invocations or operational magic or psychoactive plants or what have you, _but still self-identified as Christians_. Thanks in advance. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/2 "2013-09-15T11:57:19Z")
Francis of Assisi? He wasn’t trying to bring on The End Times, but he did espouse a pretty active pursuit of revelation. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/3 "2013-09-15T13:41:34Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Francis of Assisi? He wasn’t trying to bring on The End Times, but he did espouse a pretty active pursuit of revelation. I’m not sure. Take his stigmata, in September of 1224. Quoting from this article from _The New Yorker_: > [@](#): > > Schmucki’s account, widely accepted by others, is that Francis, while praying, looked up into the sky and saw a man (or a seraph, or Jesus) with six wings, suspended from a cross. When the apparition disappeared, Francis found on his body wounds resembling those which Jesus received when he was crucified. Notice the passive language here. While praying he “looked up” and saw what he saw; afterwards, he “found” the wounds on his body. My reading, at least, is that he didn’t specifically seek out a vision - he prayed, and then Heaven made a move and things happened. The same seems to be true of Francis’ famous “go and repair my house”-vision - it, too, is said to have happened during regular prayer. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/4 "2013-09-15T16:39:49Z")
I don’t know individual names, but Pentecostalists have some practices that seem to me fairly mystic in nature. Faith healing, speaking in tongues, snake handling. > **[Charismatic movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Movement)** > > The charismatic movement in Christianity is a movement within established or mainstream Christian denominations to adopt beliefs and practices of Charismatic Christianity with an emphasis on baptism with the Holy Spirit, and the use of spiritual gifts (charismata). It has affected most denominations in the US, and has spread widely across the world. > The movement is deemed to have begun in 1960 in Anglicanism, and spread to other mainstream protestant denominations, including Lutherans and Pre... > **[Charismatic Christianity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic_Christianity)** > > Charismatic Christianity is a form of Christianity that emphasizes the work of the Holy Spirit and spiritual gifts as an everyday part of a believer's life. It has a global presence in the Christian community. Practitioners are often called Charismatic Christians or Renewalists. Although there is considerable overlap, Charismatic Christianity is often categorized into three separate groups: Pentecostalism, the Charismatic movement (which is spread across historical Christian denominations), Chari... > **[Pentecostalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism)** > > See also: Christianity • Protestantism > Pentecostalism or classical Pentecostalism is a Protestant Charismatic Christian movement that emphasizes direct personal experience of God through baptism with the Holy Spirit. The term Pentecostal is derived from Pentecost, an event that commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the Apostles and other followers of Jesus Christ while they were in Jerusalem celebrating the Feast of Weeks, as described in the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 2:1–31). > Like ... > **[Snake handling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_handling)** > > Snake handling may refer to: > **[Faith healing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing)** > > Faith healing is the practice of prayer and gestures (such as laying on of hands) that are believed by some to elicit divine intervention in spiritual and physical healing, especially the Christian practice. Believers assert that the healing of disease and disability can be brought about by religious faith through prayer or other rituals that, according to adherents, can stimulate a divine presence and power. Religious belief in divine intervention does not depend on empirical evidence of an e Cl... > **[Speaking in tongues](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia)** > > Speaking in tongues, also known as glossolalia (Greek: γλωσσολαλία), is an activity or practice in which people utter words or speech-like sounds, often thought by believers to be languages unknown to the speaker. One definition used by linguists is the fluid vocalizing of speech-like syllables that lack any readily comprehended meaning. In some cases, as part of religious practice, some believe it to be a divine language unknown to the speaker. Glossolalia is practiced in Pentecostal and char... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/5 "2013-09-15T16:49:49Z")
Hermeticist and astrologer John Dee? Isaac Newton? Meister Eckhart? Ignatius of Loyola? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/6 "2013-09-16T02:15:50Z")
[Evelyn Underhill](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Underhill), maybe? I admit I don’t know enough about her or her writing to know whether she fits your definition of “active.” ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/7 "2013-09-16T08:02:31Z")
[Hildegarde of Bingen](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hildegard_of_Bingen) is often described as a Christian mystic, but I can’t speak to how active or passive she was about it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/8 "2013-09-16T10:05:52Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Ignatius of Loyola? Not Loyola; like Assissi, Juan de la Cruz or Teresa de Jesús, his revelations came to him during ordinary prayer. The only practice any of them had which could have been considered to actively bring visions was an excessive use of fasting, and they didn’t do it because they were trying to bring visions but as a penitence. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/9 "2013-09-16T10:36:14Z")
Lotsa possibilities here! John Dee – YES. His angelic invocations are just the sort of thing I was thinking about. Well outside of mainstream Christianity, and yet it seems clear as day that Dee considered himself a true and proper Christian. Isaac Newton – I don’t know that he ever experienced visions, hallucinations, altered states of consciousness or anything of the sort. Did he? Meister Eckhart – Same as with Newton. Ignatius of Loyola – A very interesting fellow indeed, and one of the reasons I started this thread. Thanks, **Nava** , for setting the record straight. I wonder where the _Spiritual Exercises_ stands in all this, though? Does it deal with the active vs. passive distinction, at all? Does it make a point out of distancing itself from active, perhaps “magical” practices? I realize it’s not exactly a “Visions For Dummies” handbook, but I wonder if it didn’t, perhaps, at least run the risk, in its day, of being seen as recommending an all-too-active pursuit of visions - what with its visualization techniques and such. Evelyn Underhill – Need to read up on her. Interestingly, a quick googling shows that she directly attacked William James (mentioned in the OP), but I don’t know if James’ insistence on “passivity” was one of the things she criticized him for. Hildegarde of Bingen – Definitely passive. Claimed to have had visions since the age of three, and only understood them as such later on. Following the classic pattern, she was initially reluctant, shirked from her duty of writing them down, etc. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/10 "2013-09-16T15:21:18Z")
Isaac Newton would be a big one, imho. He identified as a Christian, did scholarly research on the Bible, and was also a practicing occultist. Newton also falls under the group of scientists in academia who were also into the occult, along with Jack Parsons. Along with his rocket science work, Parsons was a good chum of Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard. Does Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science) count? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/11 "2013-09-16T15:23:14Z")
Don’t most modern day celebrity psychics claim to be Christian? ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/12 "2013-09-16T20:44:21Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Isaac Newton would be a big one, imho. He identified as a Christian, did scholarly research on the Bible, and was also a practicing occultist. Did Newton ever try to get in touch with angels or spirits or what have you? I don’t _think_ that he ever did. Of course I could be wrong. > [@robert\_columbia](#): > > Newton also falls under the group of scientists in academia who were also into the occult, along with Jack Parsons. Along with his rocket science work, Parsons was a good chum of Aleister Crowley and L. Ron Hubbard. “Good chum” is a bit of an overstatement. Crowley never met either Parsons nor Hubbard, and in fact looked down on them both. And if I remember the story correctly, Hubbard, being a complete piece of shit (pretty sure about that part), stole Parsons’ girlfriend and/or money and/or boat (not too sure about that part). Don’t know about Mary Baker Eddy. Will look her up, thanks. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/13 "2013-09-16T23:43:43Z")
Probably quite a few of the renaissance hermeticists fall into this category. John Dee, who has already been mentioned, was one, but also, I think, Cornelius Agrippa and, arguably Giordano Bruno. Bruno’s use of the “arts of memory” seems to have been at least partly about trying to induce divine visions of some sort (although I am not sure how much that counts as “active” in the OP’s sense). Certainly Dee and his associate Kelley tried to summon angels, and I would be surprised if there were not quite a few other renaissance hermeticists (it was quite a sizable intellectual movement) who tried something similar. More recently, the 20th century Irish poet W.B. Yeats believed himself to have got in touch with spirits via his wife’s “automatic writing”, and his book _A Vision_ sets out the mystical system he derived from these spirit messages. The religious context and background of his mystical thought was certainly Christian, but I am not sure to what extent he considered himself to _be_ a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Steken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-active-mystics-who-self-identified-as-christians/668903/14 "2013-09-17T16:08:14Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Probably quite a few of the renaissance hermeticists fall into this category. John Dee, who has already been mentioned, was one, but also, I think, Cornelius Agrippa and, arguably Giordano Bruno […] and I would be surprised if there were not quite a few other renaissance hermeticists (it was quite a sizable intellectual movement) who tried something similar. As would I! If I remember correctly, in _Esotericism and the Academy_ (pretty sure that’s the the one), Prof. Hanegraaff presents some (informed, level-headed) speculation about _how_, exactly, the renaissance Hermeticists might have tried to “do magic.” I think singing was part of it, based on readings (and/or misreadings?) of Plato and a whole bunch of neo-Platonic literature. Music of the spheres and all that. > [@njtt](#): > > More recently, the 20th century Irish poet W.B. Yeats believed himself to have got in touch with spirits via his wife’s “automatic writing”, and his book _A Vision_ sets out the mystical system he derived from these spirit messages. The religious context and background of his mystical thought was certainly Christian, but I am not sure to what extent he considered himself to _be_ a Christian. Yeah, I’ve wondered about that myself! Apparently, at least some of Yeats’ (drug-fueled\*) visions were of some Celtic sun god – but how that squares with his Christian faith or background, I just don’t know and can’t really say. Prof. Hutton indicates (in _Triumph Of The Moon_) that, for a while there, Yeats actually considered establishing a whole new religion all of his own – but that, by 1902, he had given up on the idea. Too bad, could have made for some interesting stuff, I’m sure! - IIRC, mescaline was Yeats’ drug of choice.