# Examples of defenders who gave up too quickly or easily in wartime **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 26, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189 "2018-04-26T22:19:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/1 "2018-04-26T22:19:17Z")
Could use some help: I am writing an article and looking for examples of nations (or tribes, or forts/castles, or other such entities) who were well-off and well-armed and could have very well defeated their invading enemies, and yet gave up too soon and easily because they underestimated their own strength and overestimated that of the enemy’s. Does Holland’s surrender to the Germans in WWII count, or were the Dutch really totally out-gunned, for instance? I am not referring to defenders who were deceived by a clever ruse of the enemy’s, but rather, defenders who knew full well what numbers they were going up against, yet simply flat-out underestimated their own ability and assets for fighting off the enemy, or thought the enemy would conquer them much more easily than they would, and gave in. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/2 "2018-04-26T22:25:00Z")
Best, too, if such examples are in the modern era (1900s and after) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/3 "2018-04-26T22:45:43Z")
I’m not sure if this is exactly what you want, and its not modern era, but at the [Battle of Cajamarca](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca) the Inca army, who outnumbered Pizarro’s forces 45 to 1, could easily have overwhelmed them despite the guns and horses of the Spanish if they had just attacked them en masse. But they were shocked and terrorized by the capture of the Emperor Atahualpa and the massacre of his mostly unarmed retinue and fled without trying to engage them. In many other engagements during the Conquest, the Spanish won as much by intimidating much larger native forces as they did because of their horses, guns, and armor. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/4 "2018-04-26T23:28:18Z")
Possibly the USS Yorktown at the battle of Midway would count. The ship had been struck by Japanese bomb, had lost power and was listing heavily (26 degrees) when the captain ordered it abandoned. However, the ship neither sank nor capsized, and the next day, a salvage crew was put back onto the ship and was making progress toward recovery. However, a Japanese submarine was able to shoot a torpedo, sinking the covering destroyer, and hitting the ship again. So again, Yorktown was abandoned. And again, she continued to stay afloat for another day and night, eventually sinking on June 7th, 3 days after the battle of Midway, and about 60 hours after first being hit by bombs. So the 12 hours after she was first abandoned may be critical – had the crew stayed aboard and kept working at recovery, she might have been saved. Might be an example where they gave up too quickly. (Not that we can blame the captain for this. A 26 degree list and complete loss of power is generally reason to abandon ship. At that time, it wasn’t know just how much punishment those american carriers like Yorktown & Lexington could take & survive.) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/5 "2018-04-26T23:41:19Z")
A couple off the top of my head: The [Fall of Singapore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Singapore) has often been taken to have been an unnecessary failure or at least the scale of failure could have been minimized. Percival and company didn’t exactly shower themselves with glory. In the 1971 [Indo-Pakistani War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971), it has been argued that despite the fact they were getting their clock cleaned in the early going and were outnumbered, the Pakistani military command in the east surrendered far too hastily. They could never have won, but could have held out in strongpoints for awhile. This would have affected the inevitable peace negotiations after the war bogged down in the west( as it somewhat did and was always likely to ). ---
**Author:** ![Luke\_who\_s\_here](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/22d042/32.png) [@Luke\_who\_s\_here](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Luke_who_s_here)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/6 "2018-04-27T07:30:46Z")
The first in my mind is the Iraqi ground forces in Desert Storm, although the Iraqis did mount offensives in various forms. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/7 "2018-04-27T08:21:42Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > A couple off the top of my head: > > The [Fall of Singapore](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Singapore) has often been taken to have been an unnecessary failure or at least the scale of failure could have been minimized. Percival and company didn’t exactly shower themselves with glory. The enemy had complete Naval superiority. No chance of relief. Would have delayed the inevitable. > [@](#): > > In the 1971 [Indo-Pakistani War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971), it has been argued that despite the fact they were getting their clock cleaned in the early going and were outnumbered, the Pakistani military command in the east surrendered far too hastily. They could never have won, but could have held out in strongpoints for awhile. This would have affected the inevitable peace negotiations after the war bogged down in the west( as it somewhat did and was always likely to ). Ditto, and unlike the Singapore example, they had been in combat more or less continiously since March and were at the end of their tether. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 8:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/8 "2018-04-27T08:24:10Z")
Also, looking at the military situation without looking at the overall startegic one is misplaced. In 1918 the German Army surrendered while still inside France and Belgium. Yet, the Germans were screwed regardless. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/9 "2018-04-27T12:10:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The enemy had complete Naval superiority. No chance of relief. Would have delayed the inevitable. No doubt the British comforted themselves after losing Singapore with that thought. They still were defeated by much inferior ground forces, giving up far sooner than necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/10 "2018-04-27T12:44:00Z")
Would Sgt. Alvin York ( [wiki](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_York) ) count? During WWI, he singlehandedly captured a lot of enemy while also destroying notable amounts of their eqpt, etc. From that link: \* He received the [Medal of Honor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor) for leading an attack on a [German](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Army_(German_Empire)) [machine gun](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_gun) nest, taking 35 machine guns, killing at least 25 enemy soldiers, and capturing 132. York’s Medal of Honor action occurred during the United States-led portion of the [Meuse-Argonne Offensive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meuse-Argonne_Offensive) in [France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Front_(World_War_I)), which was intended to breach the [Hindenburg line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindenburg_Line) and force the Germans to surrender. \*Very badass and lopsided win… ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/11 "2018-04-27T13:28:01Z")
Possibly the [ISIS conquest of Mosul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Mosul), in which ~1,500 ISIS fighters overwhelmed ~60,000 defenders. Though the reasons for the outcome are more complex than simply an incorrect assessment of the attacker’s strength. ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/12 "2018-04-27T13:34:53Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > The enemy had complete Naval superiority. No chance of relief. Would have delayed the inevitable. > Ditto, and unlike the Singapore example, they had been in combat more or less continiously since March and were at the end of their tether. The Malaya-Singapore campaign was lost in Malaya, when the British force in addition to being larger than the Japanese one was no less well supplied. The sinking of the two British capital ships in Dec '41 foreclosed the possibility of British naval power cutting off the Japanese from their supply, but it didn’t actually cut off the British from theirs. Considerable reinforcement and supply arrived in Singapore after that with minimal losses to shipping. By the time the IJA force was across Johore Strait from Singapore by the end of January 1942 resupply from outside had become impossible. But the British force still had plenty of supplies and was still much larger than the Japanese force. At the moment the British decided to surrender with the Japanese already on the island and having seized its reservoir, it could be argued it wasn’t ‘too soon’ to give up, but that’s shared with the moment of defeat in lots of campaigns where one side was badly outfought by the other. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/13 "2018-04-27T14:07:07Z")
How about the Allies facing the Germans during the “phony war” period in WW2? They utterly surrendered the initiative to the Germans (who were busy consolidating their gains in Poland) because they vastly overestimated the German military might facing them - had they called the Nazi bluff and invaded, history may have been very different. Instead, they waited - giving the Germans time to reorganize their forces and invade them, successfully. > [@](#): > > At the Nuremberg Trials, German military commander Alfred Jodl said that “if we did not collapse already in the year 1939 that was due only to the fact that during the Polish campaign, the approximately 110 French and British divisions in the West were held completely inactive against the 23 German divisions.”[16] General Siegfried Westphal stated that if the French had attacked in force in September 1939 the German army “could only have held out for one or two weeks.”[17] > **[Phoney War | Inactivity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War#Inactivity)** > > In March 1939, the UK and France formalized plans for how a war against Germany would be conducted. Knowing that likely enemies would be more prepared and have land and air superiority, the strategy was to defeat any enemy offensive, to allow time for economic and naval superiority to build up military resources. To this end, the UK initially committed to two divisions being sent to France, and two more eleven months later. > However, the Polish Army general plan for defence, Plan West, ass While m... Thus, whatever one thinks of the Fall of France, a major Allied failure was failing to take the initiative ASAP. Caused in part by over-estimation of the might of the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/14 "2018-04-27T14:10:53Z")
> [@Luke\_who\_s\_here](#): > > The first in my mind is the Iraqi ground forces in Desert Storm, although the Iraqis did mount offensives in various forms. I don’t get that at all. The coalition side had the advantage in front line troops and superior equipment if not overall numbers. The air attack preceding ground operations decimated many units. Those that weren’t hit had their logistics train destroyed and communications distrupted. Many units were isolated and alone. Then the coalition tanks rolled in and engaged and destroyed at ranges greater than the Iraqi army could hope to. The Iraqi army had no chance. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Possibly the [ISIS conquest of Mosul](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_of_Mosul), in which ~1,500 ISIS fighters overwhelmed ~60,000 defenders. Though the reasons for the outcome are more complex than simply an incorrect assessment of the attacker’s strength. That is a prime example. A superior force fled a vastly inferior force. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/15 "2018-04-27T14:42:24Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > In the 1971 [Indo-Pakistani War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakistani_War_of_1971), it has been argued that despite the fact they were getting their clock cleaned in the early going and were outnumbered, the Pakistani military command in the east surrendered far too hastily. They could never have won, but could have held out in strongpoints for awhile. This would have affected the inevitable peace negotiations after the war bogged down in the west( as it somewhat did and was always likely to ). > [@AK84](#): > > The enemy had complete Naval superiority. No chance of relief. Would have delayed the inevitable. > > Ditto, and unlike the Singapore example, they had been in combat more or less continiously since March and were at the end of their tether. What **AK84** said. The Pakistani units in East Pakistan/Bangladesh were not only exhausted from [del]massacring civilians[/del] putting down the local uprising, they simply weren’t supplied or otherwise prepared for pitched combat against an equal (much less superior) force. It would be like US infantry regiments engaged in occupation/peacekeeping in Iraq suddenly discovering that half the Russian army had arrived and started lobbing shells at them. They might be better equipped, they might be better trained, and they might even be better led,\* but that may be irrelevant when something they’re not prepared for shows up. That’s especially true since they would be fighting both the Iraqis and the Russians, while the Russians only had to contend with them. The Indian Army was welcomed by the nascent Bangladeshis, for the most part. \*I’m not saying the Pakistani army was any of these things in 1971, though the Pakistani propaganda of the day commonly held that each of its troops were worth as much as several Indians. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/16 "2018-04-27T14:59:53Z")
> [@Luke\_who\_s\_here](#): > > The first in my mind is the Iraqi ground forces in Desert Storm, although the Iraqis did mount offensives in various forms. What? The Coalition forces were much superior. It would have made more sense in the thread question if the Coalition forces surrendered to inferior Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/17 "2018-04-27T15:03:43Z")
Lee could have marched into Washington after Chancellorsville but didn’t. The South might very well have won the war if he had. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/18 "2018-04-27T15:20:44Z")
I’ve got a good one, from the War of 1812 - the surrender of Detroit. Brock and Techumseh used deception and bluff to convince a numerically superior force of Americans under General Hull entrenched within fortifications to surrender without a fight (allegedly, the British and Native casualties amounted to … two wounded). 2,500 Americans were taken prisoner; more than the attacking force (nearly double!); the British and Native forces consisted of 600 Native warriors, 330 British regulars, and 400 Canadian militia. > **[Siege of Detroit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Detroit)** > > The siege of Detroit, also known as the surrender of Detroit or the Battle of Fort Detroit, was an early engagement in the War of 1812. A British force under Major General Isaac Brock with indigenous allies under Shawnee leader Tecumseh used bluff and deception to intimidate U.S. Brigadier General William Hull into surrendering the fort and town of Detroit, Michigan, along with his dispirited army which actually outnumbered the victorious British and Indians (the first nations of then to become... Edit: also a rare example of good coordination between allies - both British and Native leadership proved decisive; each supported the other in playing on American fears. > [@](#): > > At Amherstburg, Brock immediately learned from Hull’s captured despatches that the morale of Hull and his army was low, that they feared the numbers of Natives which might be facing them, and that they were short of supplies. Brock also quickly established a rapport with Tecumseh, ensuring that the Natives would cooperate with his moves. Brock and Tecumseh met for the first and only time shortly after Brock arrived at Amherstburg. Legend has it that Tecumseh turned to his warriors and said, “Here is a man!” Brock certainly wrote shortly afterwards, “… a more sagacious and a more gallant Warrior does not I believe exist.”[16] > > Against the advice of most of his subordinates, Brock determined on an immediate attack on Detroit. The British had already played on Hull’s fear of the Natives by arranging for a misleading letter to fall into American hands. The letter asked that no more Natives be allowed to proceed from Fort Mackinac as there were already no less than 5,000 at Amherstburg and supplies were running short. Brock sent a demand for surrender to Hull, stating: > The force at my disposal authorizes me to require of you the immediate surrender of Fort Detroit. It is far from my intention to join in a war of extermination, but you must be aware, that the numerous body of Indians who have attached themselves to my troops, will be beyond control the moment the contest commences… ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/19 "2018-04-27T15:44:53Z")
During the Battle of Guadalcanal, the Japanese Navy won the Battle of Savo island and the American fleet withdrew. This could have given the Japanese fleet the ability to attack the beachhead on Guadalcanal and destroy the transport ships in the area. Instead they were afraid that the American carriers were going to attack them in the morning and left the area. Because of this the Americans were able to resupply their troops on the island, defeat the counterattack and win the battle. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189/20 "2018-04-27T16:44:47Z")
This one is debatable, but many people maintain that Czechoslovakia could have held off the German army in 1938 when Hitler annexed the Sudetenland. ([a quora.com thread about that](https://www.quora.com/Could-Czechoslovakia-have-beaten-Germany-had-they-gone-to-war-over-the-Sudetenland-in-1938)) The Czechs had significant fortifications, a sizable military given the size of their country, and the Germans were not as ready for war as they would be a year later. So it’s conceivable that Czechoslovakia gave up the Sudetenland when it could have defended it - an interesting alt-history note that we are unlikely to really figure out the answer to. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/examples-of-defenders-who-gave-up-too-quickly-or-easily-in-wartime/813189.md?page=2)